Pointed Negotiations

[8ug]

I have been thinking of going Eldritch Heritage Minotaur for some extra Melee damage and flavor to build I'm making up. I'm not fully understanding the 1st level Bloodline Power.

Minotaur 1st level Bloodline Power from d20 pfsrd site:

Spoiler:

Pointed Negotiations(Sp)
At 1st level, you can grow horns as a free action for one round for every sorcerer level. Treat them as a natural weapon, and you can make a gore attack as a full attack action using your full base attack bonus. This attack does 1d6 hp damage (1d4 if Small), plus your Strength modifier. At 5th level, the horns are considered a magic weapon for purposes of overcoming DR. At 7th level, the base damage increases to 1d8 hp (1d6 if Small). At 11th level, the horns can be used as flaming horns, adding 1d6 hp fire damage to each hit. The fire damage is a supernatural ability. You also gain darkvision 30 ft.

I've only played a little bit, but I'll tell you what I'm imagining works, and hopefully I can get some confirmation or clarification.

lvl 1- Skill Focus (Perception)
lvl 3- Eldritch Heritage (Minotaur)

lvl 3 combat- for one round a day I could grow a horn at beginning of combat, and while making a full attack with my greatsword I get +2 (BAB) to greatsword swing, then with only other attack Gore I also get +2 (BAB) to natural attack, with full strength added. End of attack.

lvl 9- for 7 rounds can grow horns, full attack when I do: two attacks with greatsword, +6/+1 and then one attack with horns +6, dmg goes to 1d8, and full strength added to damage of horn attack.

The biggest two questions I have:

1. Secondary natural attacks get -5, with martial weapons horn normally becomes secondary, but it says with full attack it gets full BAB and full strength added. Does it keep the full BAB and strength when used with martial weapons?

2. It is not saying that just the horn attack is the complete full attack action is it? If so it seems useless to me... only gore attack would take away from my greatsword attacks, unless I got disarmed or something.

[Sundakan]

Ugh. That is a terribly written ability. That's the kind of thing that gives 3rd party publishers a bad name.

Since it's a 3rd party Bloodline, and doesn't even ATTEMPT to use the same format or wording as official products who knows what they meant.

[Claxon]

So, no that doesn't seem to be the way it works.

Unfortunately, the way it's written it seems like making the attack with your horns is it's own full attack action, which means you couldn't combine it with anything else. I'm not sure if that's intentional, because it's pretty terrible.

Assuming you can use the horns with your manufactured attacks, I would rule that they basically just function as primary natural attacks. That way, when used with manufactured weapons they become secondary natural attacks and take the appropriate penalties (-5 BAB, 1/2 strength to damage). This doesn't actually seem to be the way it works (again full attack action on their own) but I think it is just bad writing.

As a GM I would probably change the rule to say that it just functions as a primary natural attack as that solution makes them not useless, but also has the appropriate drawbacks if used in conjunction with manufactured weapons.

[vhok]

that's third party stuff. don't expect balance. most DM's do not allow 3rd party so make sure to run it by your DM before you try it. also remember any full attack where you use a natural attack with a manufactured weapon all natural attacks get a -5 on them.

[8ug]

Sweet, thanks for the quick responses. That does make sense what you are saying, and I definitely pass off anything like this with DM before I go for it. If I'm planning on using a build with 3rd party (or some questionable abilities or uses) I bring something else, either variant, or altogether different build to use.

[8ug]

Just looked at it's comparison to Draconic Bloodline on d20 pfsrd

Spoiler:

At 1st level, you can grow horns as a free action for one round for every sorcerer level. Treat them as a natural weapon, and you can make a gore attack as a full attack action using your full base attack bonus. This attack does 1d6 hp damage (1d4 if Small), plus your Strength modifier. At 5th level, the horns are considered a magic weapon for purposes of overcoming DR. At 7th level, the base damage increases to 1d8 hp (1d6 if Small). At 11th level, the horns can be used as flaming horns, adding 1d6 hp fire damage to each hit. The fire damage is a supernatural ability. You also gain darkvision 30 ft.

It seems as if the third party was copying Draconic, but changing the attack. if you are just using Draconic claws with lets say a one hander, would you be able to use claw attack as a natural attack in a full attack with the -5?

[vhok]

yes you can use any natural attacks with any manufactured with a -5 and half str bonus. if your just looking for an extra attack half-orc can get a bite attack. and a ton of the advanced races can get bite and claw attacks.

[8ug]

further research, mainly into Dragon Disciple bite, shows that as far as I can see there hasn't been an official ruling on it yet, but most conclusions come to in a full round action with natural attacks, it gets primary attack bonuses, full BAB and +1.5 strength added. In a full round action involving martial weapons it is considered a secondary weapon with -5 to attack and +.5 strength to attack.

Thank y'all for helping me figure this out, and your fast responses, maybe we'll get an official ruling, until then I'll discuss with DM about it, if I ever end up using it.