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So, one of the things that really bugs me about this floor is that the clear change in nature from base troglodytes has not actually resulted in the expected alignment shift away from CE. PCs who succeed at the pitiful DC 6 Knowledge (local) check to identify these guys are going to know that things are weird from the start. After all, Slaagh is speaking in Common, a language that troglodytes don't typically know, and offering the party "holy grub" immediately upon meeting them.
If the PCs go full murderhobo straight out the gate, I would have one of the troglodytes flee ASAP to find Savisk. Once Savisk is dead and unless the box has been triggered, I would have one or two troglodytes cowering somewhere. If the PCs outright slaughter them, definitely an atonement for anyone who doesn't attempt to stop the murder. For clerics and similar, another consideration is the deity they worship - Sarenrae in particular might consider this a gross violation of her tenets.
The most warning I would give players before going down that path is "are you sure?" given that I don't like the idea of this floor being excessively railroady. It's easy to modify the NPC decision tree to impact the characters, though.
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I always point out my main problem with them - they never write the full block of the trogs, so you would normally assume same alignment...
But look at their leaders. They're Chaotic Neutral. So, if they kill all of them, at some point they'll kill two neutral leaders trying to protect their tribe from barbarians... Not sure how to justify that as 'good'.
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I would be pretty annoyed at any GM who gave me hard time trying to complete an objective called "Slayer of Troglodytes". It doesn't have to be justified as good. Who cares if it is good. All that matters is you wouldn't be shifted to evil. If you warn the players you are going to shift them you better have an alternative method ready for them to complete defeating 10 troglodytes.
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I would be pretty annoyed at any GM who gave me hard time trying to complete an objective called "Slayer of Troglodytes".
Objective? As in, goal?
noun: a thing aimed at or sought; a goal.
You're aiming to kill things? That's your intention as a Pathfinder? To kill things that offer you food, that don't attack, that aren't harming anyone? That tell you the way forward and how to pass peacefully?
Or maybe your goal is 'as much gold as I can get' and you've looked at the chronicle and know that the easiest way is just a massacre. Otherwise, you have no idea that it's a listed 'accomplishment' for the floor.
This is the exact same type of questions I asked of the table that I GM'd through this - when they reached the exit and found out that they weren't getting full gold, they insisted on going back and killing everything, because 'well, something isn't right here!'. Poor justification for gold, I think.
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I'm using the term directly from the chronicle sheet. Maybe you can go complain about it to someone else but not me.
I'm not complaining - you're the one who mentioned it as an objective, as if you were trying to do it while playing. You are unaware of it being a condition for getting some portion of gold, so I think the situation you had presented was invalid to the discussion at hand.
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I'm using the term directly from the chronicle sheet. Maybe you can go complain about it to someone else but not me.
How privy is your character to the chronicle? Additionally, we have evidence that things on the chronicle can have alignment impacts on characters, sometimes very directly.
Also, it's not hard to see the following scenario unfold:
Slaagh: “We welcome you to Godhome. You wish to make sacrifice now, or visit? Take holy grub maybe?”
Party: *ARROWS*
We're talking unprovoked murder here. That quote is the direct quote from the module and is the first thing out of the trogs' collective mouths.
Evil implies hurting, oppressing, and killing others. Some evil creatures simply have no compassion for others and kill without qualms if doing so is convenient.
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Chaotic Evil: A chaotic evil character does what his greed, hatred, and lust for destruction drive him to do. He is vicious, arbitrarily violent, and unpredictable.
I'm no huge fan of the alignment system, but such a situation would qualify under the Evil banner for sure, and I'd consider it fairly chaotic as well. The floor is meant to be a non-trap moral quandary - You are welcomed, given a non-violent solution that accomplishes your objective without filling your pockets. There's a puzzle, but it's optional. Hostilities are completely dependent on your actions as a character. If your character opts to be Indiana Jones instead of a gracious guest, you've trended towards neutral and get attacked for it. If your character opts for racism and immediate violence, it's evil.
I'm certainly not planning on punishing a party who wants to solve the puzzle, but the one that walks in like a tactical combat unit intent on slaughter isn't walking away from that unscathed on the alignment spectrum. I would be recording an evil act on the chronicle and reviewing characters to determine if it was a gross violation for divine casters.
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It doesn't matter if my character is privy to the chronicle. I said the GM shouldn't be actively punishing an objective listed on the sheet. The action doesn't say it influences your alignment so it isn't like other boon etc which do.
It's not my table so go ahead and slap people with a playing the game tax I suppose if you feel it is needed. I wouldn't though.
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Sure, but the reward is in line with the objectives of the Pathfinder Society. I don't think doing something in line with the organization's goals makes you evil (the Society is a neutral organization).
I remember a scenario where it asks the players to do something and mentions one method drops their alignment.
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Since one of the conditions for getting full credit in PFS in contingent upon defeating at least ten Trogs in combat and is also called Slayer of Troglodytes, I would not ding any PC's with an alignment shift for fighting or killing the trogs. The PC's will know with a pretty easy knowledge check (that can be made untrained cause it's so low) that troglodytes are typically evil, at that point the PC's have no real reason to trust any of the trogs (it could be a trap!) and violencing them out of the way of their expedition is a reasonable way to handle it.
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Remember, Slayer of Troglodytes is just one of four conditions. Each condition grants 1 XP, ! Prestige Point and 1,600 gp. However, the most that can be earned is 3 XP, 3 Prestige Points and 4,800 gp. And if you complete three or more objectives, you earn one additonal Prestige Point.
So it's possible to earn all of this levels possible rewards without killing 10+ troglodytes.
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Honestly I hate the conditions of this scenario.
As a DM i would judge it in a case by case basis. There was only one player I ever dinged for being evil(although it was twice i warned him it would happen and he ignored me) . If the player had a somewhat justifiable reason to murder hobo the trogs I would allow it without any punishment.
it is pretty extreme to dink a character for evil and the DM MUST warn them(see spoiler).
As to
Murder feels neutral to you?
That brings the exception of murdering Hitler, is that evil? It is debatable. These trogs are not Hitler, but they are commonly known to be evil, so the debate is there.
the GM is the final authority at the table, but she must warn
any player whose character is deviating from his chosen
alignment. This warning must be clear, and the GM must
make sure that the player understands the warning and the
actions that initiated the warning. The PC should be given
the opportunity to correct the behavior, justify it, or face the
consequences.
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Remember, Slayer of Troglodytes is just one of four conditions. Each condition grants 1 XP, ! Prestige Point and 1,600 gp. However, the most that can be earned is 3 XP, 3 Prestige Points and 4,800 gp. And if you complete three or more objectives, you earn one additonal Prestige Point.
So it's possible to earn all of this levels possible rewards without killing 10+ troglodytes.
True, except two of the other three conditions should also result in provoking the wrath of the trogs. There is very little chance to get full rewards without taking out the trogs.
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I've run this twice as a sanctioned PFS module. Both times, my players were respectful to Slaagh. They accepted his offer of holy grub, they agreed to make a sacrifice to the Godbox and they consented to follow him on a tour through Godhome.
Unfortunately, both times, someone got too close to the Godbox and became stuck. The only way free would result in the loss of valuable equipment (magic armor). In both instances, the decision was made to deactivate the Godbox, prompting the troglodytes to fight to the death.
While my players did kill some troglodytes in self defense, they did not kill all the troglodytes; they were able to subdue some with nonlethal damage and "quarantine" others from access to the Godbox.
In both cases, there was remorse over the troglodyte deaths that were unavoidable and player discussion afterwards as to how all troglodyte deaths might have been avoided.
My point is that players shouldn't feel they must kill the troglodytes to succeed and it should be possible for a GM to portray the troglodytes sympathetically so that players will want to avoid killing the troglodytes. In my opinion, the play of this level is enhanced when the GM can present the players with a moral dilemma.
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Our party was suspicious but courteous at the beginning. I think stuff getting stuck did happen, but I cannot remember what prompted us to actually start fighting. Anyway, we went with full non-lethal, and that wasn't too difficult.
I think possible alignment infractions really depend on how the players go about the killing. It's arguably more evil to attack with just "well they're usually evil, let's not even consider other options -> total slaughter" than "oops we made a mistake and now they're attacking us, let's kill one to make the others back down" or something like that.
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The main issue is that the trogs aren't hostile so it's extremely hard to fight them. For the standard game, they made the offering and left. They only got the 1 checkmark for everything, but they felt quite happy with that, morally. Tonight's group, most of them had no problem with that, but the paladin wanted the actual shield just in it was a family heirloom or memento. This in turn caused the animated objects to start up. I allowed that if they put the item back, it'd be fine. The paladin ended up fighting alone as no one else wanted to desecrate any of the structures. The paladin was also the only one who wanted to take the doors off and put them in the machine.
It ended up that I had to hand wave a few things, but the trogs got very upset with the paladin and told him to leave. Unfortunately, he had stayed in there long enough that his newly bought (this session) mwk full plate was pretty damaged by the Godbox, but he was still fighting with his sword. He was so close to rage quitting that it was scaring the table. The look on his face was that of someone who was about to burst with anger and tears, and jump over the table to kill me. Everyone sitting there was uncomfortable. I allowed him to scrap enough of his stuff together that a make whole spell would suffice. He didn't even have to for pay it. The new player with a pregen ended up selling her stuff so he could.
I think what pissed him off the most was reading the chronicle sheet to find that there was no real way to beat the adventure without him and the LG cleric losing their status and needing to pay for atonements. Paladins and clerics of Iomedae don't do genocide.
Given that they only got 1 PP, 1 XP and 1600 gold like my previous table, a couple of them felt like their time was wasted, and that this was a no-win situation.
I can't help but feel like I ran this wrong. It's a hard position to be in.