In PFS, what would be the big reasons to bring along a full divine caster? Cleric, Oracle, Druid. Like, I know that they all are good classes, I'm not asking that. I'm asking about is just the spells. So like think about a full casting based version.
Divine itself doesn't really mean anything. What is good to have is the cleric spell list for access to condition removal that is hard to find in other places. Even an Oracle that doesn't have a particular spell known can use a scroll to deal fix that sort of problem, a cleric of course is at most a day away from being able to cast the spell.
Dave is mostly right.
Access to scrolls and wands of divine spells is pretty much mandatory if you ever encounter anything that leaves an unwanted mark on the character sheet.
This gives classes like paladins and rangers more use and utility in the world, especially since paladins existing allows for access to 1st level spell versions of wands of lesser restoration, one of the most important things to always have, but hope you never have to use.
since paladins existing allows for access to 1st level spell versions of wands of lesser restoration
I don't believe this is true for PFS.
That said, they can certainly use the more expensive wands.
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since paladins existing allows for access to 1st level spell versions of wands of lesser restorationI don't believe this is true for PFS.
That said, they can certainly use the more expensive wands.
Then its a PFS house rule that is dumb and against what exists in the CRB.
There's a lot of those.
Divine casters have several advantages. First and most obvious is that they are full casters. Secondly they also have decent combat ability. Being able to wear armor and having a ¾ BAB allows them to deal with combat a lot better than most arcane casters. Most of them also have good fortitude and will save. Since will saves are based on WIS which is usually their casting stat they have the best will saves in the game. They also usually get d8 for HP giving them more HP than full arcane casters. Combined this gives them very good survivability.
For prepared divine caster getting access to their entire spell list instead of knowing a limited number is a huge advantage. Clerics especially have a lot of situational spells, but when the situation comes up those spells are usually incredibly important. Condition removal spells are a perfect example. If you have not taken any temporary ability damage lesser restoration is almost completely useless, but if you have taken the damage it is incredibly useful. Druids also have a very versatile spell list and get a little bit of everything including a surprising number of blast spells.
All of them also get a decent number of special abilities. Clerics get 2 domains and channel energy. Druids get a lot of special abilities like wild shape, animal companions, Oracles get revelations. All of them also have at least some spontaneous magic. Clerics can swap out any spell for a cure, druids do the same thing with summon natures ally. Oracles are spontaneous casters, and actually get more spells than a sorcerer of the same level due to knowing either the cure, or inflict spells.
So in conclusion divine casters get better combat ability and survivability than an arcane caster. The get access to more spells. , they all have significant other abilities and can usually match or exceed the number of spells an arcane caster gets. That is a pretty decent package.
So it seems you're saying the draw of a full divine caster is access to the full list of spells everyday. Which helps in PFS if you leave slots open and can prepare needed spells in them as needed.
I've had a few mid to high ranged scenario's recently where people have been worried about a lack of divine spellcasting in the party and I'm curious what we're lacking from it.
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Not that much in PFS scenarios, really, since if you create optimised murderhobos who murderhobo things before they even have a turn, then we're all happy and good, right? And you can clear it at end of scenario.
But for modules where they send you to the middle of no where (like the shadow plane), and you fail a fort save agaibst blindness as an arcane caster, then you're screwed over....
Or if you get Mummy Rot and the nearest towm is a week away, you're too low level to teleport...
Or when a dragon decides to strafe you with its breath weapon and the arcane casters didn't prepare communal resist energy with a reach rod, because they were busy loading their level 3 slots with fireballs.
I've had a few mid to high ranged scenario's recently where people have been worried about a lack of divine spellcasting in the party and I'm curious what we're lacking from it.
When you start playing 10-11 tier, some parties start counting on a breath of life being available for "inevitable" deaths. Also possibly things like break enchantment, or even a mid-scenario raise dead.
When Pathfinder first came out and it was limited to core rule book only there was a much more defined line between divine and arcane magic. This was even more defined in early games like 1st edition AD&D. In the core rule book bards are the only arcane caster who gets any healing at all, and even they lack most of the condition removal spells that a healer needs. Now with the alchemist, investigator, witch and archetypes for other classes that is no longer the case. Many gamers, especially those who have been gaming for a long time, still have it in their mind you need a divine caster. Also when they talk about divine caster they are more often than not talking about a cleric.
With classes like alchemist and witch this is no longer the case. Also many of the archetypes also give spells and abilities that were once only available to divine casters. Many of the newer divine casters have a similar feel to the cleric so people lump them together and feel comfortable with them replacing the cleric. This is often true with the oracle due to his limited number of spell. Yes he gets all the cure spells for free, but does not have the condition removal spells. More than likely he is not going to waste any of his spell slots on conditional spells unless they are granted by his mystery.
So basically unless you are playing with only the core rule book you no longer need any particular class. You do however need a character to fill the role that class traditionally played.
So basically unless you are playing with only the core rule book you no longer need any particular class. You do however need a character to fill the role that class traditionally played.
See, this is the question I was trying to ask. What is the role cleric filled?
It seems it's rezzing and condition removal.
a good Cleric can fill more than just the Rezzing and condition removal role.
with the right feat to boost your spell DC's etc, it's not hard to become a striker. Plane shift random badguy........ etc...
Clerics can do lots of things, but some of the things only clerics (and their ilk) can do is condition removal. Clerics are the best at condition removal. Other classes struggle at it (late access, reduced spell versatility, lacking access to some spells) and some classes get NO condition removal abilities.
But just like a rogue-less party can be fine when the GM reduces or removes traps and locks, a cleric-less party can be fine if negative conditions are rare, temporary, or have other means of curing (like potions, scrolls, NPC allies, magical fountains of plot correction, etc.).
The traditional role of the cleric is healing and support.
Healing is mainly restoring HP and condition removal. Most of this can now be handled with magic items instead of spells. But keep in mind for this to work you need someone who can actually use the wands and scrolls. So you either need someone with those spells on their spell list, or you need someone with a good enough UMD that they can use the magic items with little or no chance of failure. It also includes bringing a person back from being dead.
Support generally is about three things increasing the abilities of your allies, protecting your allies from harm and utility and gathering information. Clerics have some of the best buff spells in the game, about the only one who can compare to them are bards. They also have probably the best selection of defensive spells in the game. Utility and information is not exclusive to the cleric but they do have some unique spells like augury and commune. They tend to be a little more reliable than arcane divination, but are often more narrowly focused.
The last thing clerics traditionally excel at is dealing with undead and outsiders. Typically an arcane caster does a better job at blasting except for when it comes to undead and outsiders. Show me a 2nd level arcane spell that caps out at 10d6 points of damage. Spear of purity and its variants normally do 1d8 points of damage per 2 caster levels and max out at 5d8 at 10th level, but when dealing with an outsider of the appropriate alignment it changes to 1d6 per level maxing out at 10d6. Planar ally is a lot safer than using planar binding. The cleric simply bargains with the outsider for services rendered, where the wizard has to force the outsider to and may end up getting attacked by the outsider he is summoning.
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In PFS, what would be the big reasons to bring along a full divine caster? Cleric, Oracle, Druid. Like, I know that they all are good classes, I'm not asking that. I'm asking about is just the spells. So like think about a full casting based version.
They can fill a variety of roles. Depending on what you want them to do. As a casting platform they are ok but over shadowed by Arcane casters. As a combat healer they are good but over shadowed in combat by most full BAB classes. Their advantage is they can be built to fill any role well if not the best.
Examples from my play exp. in PFSP.
Oracle Mystery Battle: Using a reach weapon. Makes for a great combat healer you stay behind the heavy hitters. Healing as needed. Your main role is damage dealing.
Cleric/Monk: Bad touch focus. I made a casting cleric that is focused on tough spells. Using stunning fist to deliver them. This has worked well and fun to play the character. My favorite so far is bestow curse (50% action) Will save, delivered by stunning fist Fort save.
Now this one is not on your list. However this character has acted as the main healer for groups. More often then I like. But when you have the umd to use any of the cleric scrolls with a good chance of success.
Bard: standard no archetype. Focused on versatility. Can cover just about any role the party needs at the time. Not the best at any one. A high UMD makes using raise dead possible, and buying a wand of lesser restoration early made so many scenarios easy.
@OP:
You bring them for upper to high level campaigns, where you have to have ways to deal with crits of 85+ on a regular basis.
They also have the tools to act as enablers for the rest of the group, if they use them.
Funny thing is this: the lower the level, the more a divine caster is a healbot, and the higher it gets, the more he can act offensively. The most important factors are heal, mass heal and other stuff (preventive feats, efficient after-care spells), which free up time for the caster.
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So basically unless you are playing with only the core rule book you no longer need any particular class. You do however need a character to fill the role that class traditionally played.See, this is the question I was trying to ask. What is the role cleric filled?
It seems it's rezzing and condition removal.
In combat healing (particularly high powered healing such as the heal spell, empowered cures (healing domain), or area healing such as channel, mass cure spells (primarily if empowered), and mass heal, and breath of life) can also be useful as a resilience factor. A party of optimized murderhobos relying on the ninja UMDing a wand of CLW or the summoner using a wand of infernal healing on people can overcome most encounters. However, there are occasionally times when the bad guy wins initiative and drops a party member with an 85 damage crit or the enemy sorcerer rolls max on the fireball and half the party fails their saves then the enemy cleric channels energy and all of a sudden the whole party is in the danger zone. In those times, if you have powerful in-combat healing, you can use it and put the party back together. If you don't, it can be very difficult to get out of the hole you started the fight in. The party that has a full cleric (or oracle that brings the same things to the table) can come back from a lot of situations that a more glass-cannon heavy party cannot come back from easily. And the cleric also brings all the other things people have mentioned to the table so he's not a waste of space when things go right and you don't start the battle in a hole.