limited items listed twice on chronicle sheets

[Z...D...]

On a scenario I played last night. I received an item that is limited. In the all sub-tier category it is limited to 2. In the higher sub-tier it has a limit of 3.

So what I think it is, since I did the higher tier, I get the limit 3.

Or am I off, and I get to buy this item a total of 5 times.

The other GMs at this table, could not answer this question, and I'm not finding anything in the Guide pertaining to this situation.

[Gummy Bear]

This thread suggests that you'd get the one you qualify for and not the lower ones. It is about boons printed multiple times, but it would make sense for items too.

[Gary Bush]

I don't think the thread Gummy Bear linked relates to items.

I was told that if the character qualifies for both tiers than they can get the limited item for each tier.

[RealAlchemy]

Thjen you start opening cans of worms like the 5 charge wand in low tier and the 10 charge wand in high tier and buying one of each to get 15 charges.

[Z...D...]

That's why I was assuming that I would just use the one with the higher limit usage.

[GreySector]

Playing the higher subtier also grants access to all lower subtier items, including limited items.

[GM Lamplighter]

I think that's incorrect, Michael. GMs are supposed to cross off items the party didn't come across.

Almost always, those duplicate items the OP mentions are the same one in each subtier, but higher CL/more charges/whatever. One is carried by the low-subtier bad guy, and one is carried by the high subtier bad guy. If the bad guy they faced has a wand with 10 charges, but the Chronicle lists a wand with 5 and a wand with 10, the GM should be crossing off the wand with 5.

[FLite]

You only get the items you find in the adventure.

If you find 2 X in subtier 1-2 and 3 X in subtier 4-5 and you play subtier 4-5, you only found the 3 X, so the 2 X should be crossed off.

[BigNorseWolf]

Cross off the 2

[UndeadMitch]

Michael Eshleman wrote:

Playing the higher subtier also grants access to all lower subtier items, including limited items.

This is what I've always been told.

[GM Lamplighter]

It's not what the rules say, though. Often, it works out that way and so many GMs have apparently gotten into that habit, but it is incorrect.

[Gary Bush]

Lamplighter, can you provide the rule that defines that position?

Thanks

[FLite]

The rule is you get access to all the items you find, and the GM crosses off the ones you didn't find. It is in the guide on filling out chronicle sheets.

[Kurthnaga]

Gary Bush wrote:

Lamplighter, can you provide the rule that defines that position?

Thanks

While I don't agree with the logic behind it entirely, in that some chronicles have completely different items depending on the tier, it's in the Pathfinder Society Roleplaying Guild Guide page 22, under 'Step 3: Spoils of War and Buying Equipment'. The passage reads,

"...After the scenario, the GM checks which items you and your fellow Pathfinders discovered...Items not discovered in play are blacked out or lined out by the GM."

If you just read it as it is it clearly indicates that you get access to what the PC's found in the scenario and nothing else. Of course that also muddies up items that are only mentioned on the Chronicle as a reward for your job, I don't believe you find every item during the course of every adventure. Still, it appears rather clear. Unfortunate. While I'd say the case you outlined is a bit of trying to get an edge,(which I can appreciate, most chronicle sheets are full of garbage), some chronicles under the tier you played in still have quite useful, and critically cheaper consumables occasionally, although as with all things chronicle, this gets better as you progress to the newer material.

[Gary Bush]

OK I have not seen a GM do this. But I think I have only one chronical that has items listed by the OP.

Hopefully leadership will clarify because I am sure there is a fair number of peeps doing this wrong.

[Drahliana Moonrunner]

Gummy Bear wrote:

This thread suggests that you'd get the one you qualify for and not the lower ones. It is about boons printed multiple times, but it would make sense for items too.

It's the same scenario if you get the +1 Sword of Pete at low tier and a +2 Sword of Pete at the high tier. You don't buy both.

[Kurthnaga]

Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:

Gummy Bear wrote:

This thread suggests that you'd get the one you qualify for and not the lower ones. It is about boons printed multiple times, but it would make sense for items too.

It's the same scenario if you get the +1 Sword of Pete at low tier and a +2 Sword of Pete at the high tier. You don't buy both.

But what if low tier has a "Cure Light Wounds Wand:20 Charges"

and high tier has a "Cure Moderate Wounds Wand:15 Charges"?

Those are functionally pretty different items, but I wouldn't be surprised if such a thing already exists on a printed chronicle. While this isn't the most pressing example due to the way people spend their prestige, you should never be incentivized to play below your level, and you shouldn't feel bad about missing out on things because you played the appropriate tier. I'm sure the development staff is intelligent in this regard, but everyone makes mistakes, and I wouldn't be surprised to see two different partially charged wands on low and high tier chronicles.

[Drahliana Moonrunner]

Kurthnaga wrote:

Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:

Gummy Bear wrote:

This thread suggests that you'd get the one you qualify for and not the lower ones. It is about boons printed multiple times, but it would make sense for items too.

It's the same scenario if you get the +1 Sword of Pete at low tier and a +2 Sword of Pete at the high tier. You don't buy both.

But what if low tier has a "Cure Light Wounds Wand:20 Charges"

and high tier has a "Cure Moderate Wounds Wand:15 Charges"?

Those are functionally pretty different items, but I wouldn't be surprised if such a thing already exists on a printed chronicle. While this isn't the most pressing example due to the way people spend their prestige, you should never be incentivized to play below your level, and you shouldn't feel bad about missing out on things because you played the appropriate tier. I'm sure the development staff is intelligent in this regard, but everyone makes mistakes, and I wouldn't be surprised to see two different partially charged wands on low and high tier chronicles.

The reason you see that is that the same encounter yields different rewards depending on the tier played. The higher tiered version of the encounter carries the CMW wand, the lower version, the cure light wounds wand.

[GM Lamplighter]

Thanks for doing the reference for me, Kurthnaga - that is indeed the rule I was referring to.

For reference, every item on the Chronicle is something that can be found in the scenario - there are no "rewards" from the Society as a kind of salary. Therefore, if you don't find it (either because you miss it or because it's not present in your subtier) then it gets crossed off the Chronicle. That is the rule, and there is really no reason to interpret it differently.

[GM Lamplighter]

Kurthnaga wrote:

... I wouldn't be surprised to see two different partially charged wands on low and high tier chronicles.

So? If you play the low subtier, you have access to the one listed there; if you play high subtier you have access to the (probably better) one listed there. You aren't missing out on anything.

Let's turn it around - why should you gain access to an item that you never encountered in the scenario?

[Ascalaphus]

"Joe gives the PCs an X. In the high subtier, instead he gives them an Y."

When playing high tier, cross off the X because it was never there to be found in the first place.

[Z...D...]

Kurthnaga wrote:

Gary Bush wrote:

Lamplighter, can you provide the rule that defines that position?

Thanks

While I don't agree with the logic behind it entirely, in that some chronicles have completely different items depending on the tier, it's in the Pathfinder Society Roleplaying Guild Guide page 22, under 'Step 3: Spoils of War and Buying Equipment'. The passage reads,

"...After the scenario, the GM checks which items you and your fellow Pathfinders discovered...Items not discovered in play are blacked out or lined out by the GM."

If you just read it as it is it clearly indicates that you get access to what the PC's found in the scenario and nothing else. Of course that also muddies up items that are only mentioned on the Chronicle as a reward for your job, I don't believe you find every item during the course of every adventure. Still, it appears rather clear. Unfortunate. While I'd say the case you outlined is a bit of trying to get an edge,(which I can appreciate, most chronicle sheets are full of garbage), some chronicles under the tier you played in still have quite useful, and critically cheaper consumables occasionally, although as with all things chronicle, this gets better as you progress to the newer material.

I'm the OP. So unless there is a black and white ruling from higher on this. I'm going with this conclusion since it makes the most sense IMO. Thank you Kurthnaga

[Ferious Thune]

Just remember that overcoming a challenge gets the PCs the reward even if they don't technically find it. For example, if they use Diplomacy to avoid a fight, they still get access to the items they would have found from that fight, because they have overcome the challenge. Otherwise we'll go back to encouraging just killing everything in sight.

But otherwise, I'm not sure where the different tiers are concerned. Lamplighter may be technically right. I do think there are circumstances where you're intended to be able to by either the lesser or greater version of an item regardless of which tier you played, but those might be called out on the chronicle. There have certainly been time when I've wanted to by a wand off low-tier after having played high-tier. Like if it's a wand with reduced charges and I want the cheaper one. I don't think I've ever actually done that, though. Most of the time GMs don't cross items off when the mission is a complete success, just in the interest of time filling out the chronicle.

[Jayson MF Kip]

When they adjusted chronicles to say "all subtiers" and added a section for the higher subtier, I always assumed the higher subtier section adds to (not replaces) things from the "all subtiers" section. Because those rewards are available to players in all subtiers.

I picture the flavor as something like this:

PC who just played high sub-tier: "Yo, Quartermaster, here's a 4 charge-wand of greater invisibility we found."

Quartermaster: "Nice! Here's some gold, and I'll note that you have access to purchase it! And hey, because you went above and beyond the call of duty minimum subtier, you can have purchase access for this 4-charge wand of invisibility if you so prefer. It's a bit cheaper."

[Darrell Impey UK]

It doesn't help that some chronicles divide the lists as "tier 1-2 / tier 4-5", where as others say "all tiers / tier 4-5"

[Kurthnaga]

Jeff Hazuka wrote:

When they adjusted chronicles to say "all subtiers" and added a section for the higher subtier, I always assumed the higher subtier section adds to (not replaces) things from the "all subtiers" section. Because those rewards are available to players in all subtiers.

I picture the flavor as something like this:

PC who just played high sub-tier: "Yo, Quartermaster, here's a 4 charge-wand of greater invisibility we found."

Quartermaster: "Nice! Here's some gold, and I'll note that you have access to purchase it! And hey, because you went above and beyond the call of duty minimum subtier, you can have purchase access for this 4-charge wand of invisibility if you so prefer. It's a bit cheaper."

Great thing to point out Jeff, and something that I had forgotten. I guess that puts most of my concerns to rest going forward. Also an explanation for such a thing that totally gels with my view of how the Society operates, and solves the weird case they mentioned about Limits changing, as the higher subtier is like an addendum and thus should supersede the lower subtier rewards where relevant, thus updating the qualities while allowing access to the lesser, but cheaper, rewards that may occasionally appear.

We can't fix everything going backward but if the 'all subtiers'/'higher subtier' works as it seems to, that fixes any problems I would have had with the system.

[GM Lamplighter]

My points were limited to the Chronicls that list the different subtiers. Clearly, something lists under all subtiers instead of "subtier X" is available no matter what subtier you play.

[Linda Zayas-Palmer]

Z...D... wrote:

On a scenario I played last night. I received an item that is limited. In the all sub-tier category it is limited to 2. In the higher sub-tier it has a limit of 3.

So what I think it is, since I did the higher tier, I get the limit 3.

Or am I off, and I get to buy this item a total of 5 times.

The other GMs at this table, could not answer this question, and I'm not finding anything in the Guide pertaining to this situation.

If it is the exact same item—for example, the low subtier gives 2 doses of black lotus extract, and the higher gives 3—you can buy the amount listed in the high subtier. That is, you can buy 3 doses, not 5.

If, however, the item is different, even if it is similarly themed, you can buy the items listed in both subtiers after playing the high subtier. If low subtier has 3 +1 flaming arrows and a wand of cure light wounds with 5 charges and the high subtier has 4 +1 flaming burst arrows and a wand of cure moderate wounds with 5 charges, you can buy a total of 7 arrows and 2 wands.

[CanisDirus]

Thank you for that clarification, Linda - can we have this added to the campaign clarifications or something similar? This is a pretty big ruling! :)