A Sleuth Empiricist Investigator

[Heathwool]

I was looking at making a Sleuth Empiricist Investigator (taking 2 archetypes). I don't believe these overlap.

So is this a legal combination?

Thanks!

[Weirdo]

Correct.

The only thing the Sleuth replaces is Alchemy, and the Empiricist doesn't affect that ability.

Note that Swift Alchemy is a different ability from Alchemy.

[Gisher]

Weirdo wrote:

Correct.

The only thing the Sleuth replaces is Alchemy, and the Empiricist doesn't affect that ability.

Note that Swift Alchemy is a different ability from Alchemy.

I agree. It seems weird that an archetype can lose Alchemy, but keep Swift Alchemy - leaving it as a vestigial ability that can't actually be used. But I think the designers sometimes do this one purpose so that this sort of stacking is still possible.

Edit: Corrected by Endoralis. :)

[Endoralis]

Actually that is incorrect, they do sadly overlap, Sleuth trades out Swift Alchemy for the Level 4 Deeds.

To this end I dont believe there are any such usable Archetypes that mix with Sleuth, which makes me sad as losing Alchemy is a really big blow.

[Gisher]

Endoralis wrote:

Actually that is incorrect, they do sadly overlap, Sleuth trades out Swift Alchemy for the Level 4 Deeds.

To this end I dont believe there are any such usable Archetypes that mix with Sleuth, which makes me sad as losing Alchemy is a really big blow.

You are correct. I missed that one stuck in the middle of the text.

[Endoralis]

Yeah it is unfortunately an issue of bad editing. It seems to flow into the ability text and thus get missed by almost all of the sites and guides that read over the abilities. So as MUCH as an Empiricist Investigator with Sleuth MAKES SENSE. It by the rules cannot be done. Though the trade is completely unbalanced.

[Dave Justus]

While it is absolutely true that the two archetypes don't stack, it would certainly make sense for an archetype to replace alchemy but not swift alchemy (or vice versa) since despite the names, the two abilities really don't relate much to each other at all.

Alchemy the ability is more or less spell casting with a few different mechanics.

Swift Alchemy affects academical crafting using the skill (and minorly using poisons) but it doesn't do anything to the 'Alchemy' ability at all.

Having one without the other is perfectly viable.

Of course, that doesn't apply in this case.

[Weirdo]

Also missed that in the editing, and yes, it sucks.

Worth noting that while it doesn't make much thematic sense to keep Swift Alchemy without the main alchemy ability, nothing in Swift Alchemy actually depends on the Alchemy ability.

[Endoralis]

That's the thing Dave, there are ALOT of archetypes that trade out swift Alchemy but not the Alchemy class feature. It is the exact reason Empiricist cannot be chosen, among a plethora of other Archetypes. I believe there are maybe a few that do not, but if chosen simply will not work with Sleuth except Lightbearer I believe.

We are answering a question however, so it must be as the rules say they are.

[Heathwool]

Ahh OK. Yeah, that is edited bad. My goal was to make a BBC Sherlock Holmes like character, with a dump in Charisma (to show his general infamy as someone who doesn't get along with people), so Sleuth made thematic sense, plus the observations of the Empiricist.

[Gambit]

Are you playing a home game or PFS, I see no reason why a reasonable home DM wouldnt allow slight tweaking to make this combination work.