I have been a player of D&D and a reader of FR novels for some time, and that is a question that bugs me.
I mean, all the other gods are old and dirt, plenty of time to earn their levels, and some of them may have been born with them, since they were gods from the beginning. Dudes like Bane (lvl 65) and Azuth (lvl 60) probably were already uber-epic before ascending (and that's how they became gods).
But nothing suggests that Kelemvor, Cyric and Midnight were Epic o close to it before their apotheosis. Okay, Midnight kinda merged with the old Mystra, so it makes sense that she got her levels, but, what about Kelemvor (lvl 50) and Cyric (lvl 55)? How did they manage to reduce the gap between their levels and those of older gods so quickly?
I know that the real explanation is "so they aren't too weak when compared to the other gods", but, is there an in-universe non-meta explanation? Do people who ascend always get a bunch of levels as a gift from Ao when they receive the divinity package?
Thank you all in advance.
Yup, it's all about where you stand on a cosmic level.
Yup, it's all about where you stand on a cosmic level.
So just like that? A character ascends, and it gets 30 or so levels?
Mmmm... I know it is a completely different system, but it reminds me of the Immortals Handbook: Ascension, where there is a minimum HD you have to reach before becoming a deity of a certain level... maybe Ao upgrades the new gods so they satisfy the HD requirements?
I assume that Midnight got most of her levels from merging with Mystra.
As far as Cyric is concerned, he started out his career pulling an intrigue/scam on all the followers of Bane/Myrkul/Bhaal by continuing to grant them spells. This became even more relevant when Cyric killed the goddess of lies and illusions. After that, there were all of the events of Prince of Lies and Trial of Cyric the Mad.
Kelemvor is a little harder to swallow. After he dies, he's in hiding thanks to Mask until Mask and Jergal's gambit to oust Cyric from the city of the dead. Now, Kelemvor did partake in a little bit of that uprising so I suppose that justifies a few of his levels. Then once he becomes the god of the dead, I suppose he needs to pacify any dissenters. Doesn't help much but makes the idea a little easier to swallow.
Additionally, gods just earn xp in a way that is different from most adventurers as their goals are different, i.e. deities advance by increasing the presence and predominance of their portfolios as opposed to mortals who gain levels by adventuring and defeating enemies (both are overcoming obstacles but in different ways).
That's my two cents.
I assume that Midnight got most of her levels from merging with Mystra.
As far as Cyric is concerned, he started out his career pulling an intrigue/scam on all the followers of Bane/Myrkul/Bhaal by continuing to grant them spells. This became even more relevant when Cyric killed the goddess of lies and illusions. After that, there were all of the events of Prince of Lies and Trial of Cyric the Mad.
Kelemvor is a little harder to swallow. After he dies, he's in hiding thanks to Mask until Mask and Jergal's gambit to oust Cyric from the city of the dead. Now, Kelemvor did partake in a little bit of that uprising so I suppose that justifies a few of his levels. Then once he becomes the god of the dead, I suppose he needs to pacify any dissenters. Doesn't help much but makes the idea a little easier to swallow.
Yes, but the other deities have been doing the same for eons, and the difference isn't so big. Lolth, for example, has 60 HD. When you compare everything Lolth must have achieved during all those ages of intrigue and corruption and war, to what Cyric has achieved during the few years he has been a deity... how come the gap between them is of 5 HD only?
Additionally, gods just earn xp in a way that is different from most adventurers as their goals are different, i.e. deities advance by increasing the presence and predominance of their portfolios as opposed to mortals who gain levels by adventuring and defeating enemies (both are overcoming obstacles but in different ways).
That's my two cents.
Even then, beings like Shar and Selune and Corellon and Lolth and Moradin have been doing the same for far longer, but the level gap is small...
I guess @captain yesterday is right, and their class level is attached to their divine rank. Something like this:
Demi-deity - At least 20 HD (like Imhotep).
Lesser deity - At least 30 HD.
Intermediate deity - At least 40 HD.
Greater deity - At least 50 HD (like Kelemvor).
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Yup, it's all about where you stand on a cosmic level.So just like that? A character ascends, and it gets 30 or so levels?
In their case, characters ascended and became something no longer bound or defined by class mechanics. Instead being wargaming constructs, they are now storybound GM elements.
You pretty much got all of it. And mostly right!
It was Midnight who slew Myrkul, while Bane was killed by Torm (who sacrificed himself to do so). Cyric (who did kill Bhaal) acquired their (Bane & Myrkul) portfolios mostly because he happened to be at the right place & right time (i.e. the Celestial Stair - or something) when Ao was assessing the fallout of the 'Godswar'(=Avatar Crisis).
Cyric did go on to murder Leira, goddess of illusions & deception (with Mask's assist).
Otherwise good summary of the whole story arc.
(^_')=b
Carry on!
--C.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Realms deities are powered by (and thus more beholden to) worship. Therefore the power of the deity comes not from the individual being, but the worship they maintain. By attaining divine essence, the three gained the power of the worship over which they were assuming ownership. This power infused their being, boosting them to the appropriate degree. The reason that ancient deities and new deities are nearly equal is because their worship is more similar than their age.
Thank you. I have a reasonably good memory. I read the novels when they first came out, more than ten years ago. Or is it more that twenty? If anyone still has the novels, could you post the publication dates? Thank you in advance.
Almost 30! 1989 is when Shadowdale was released.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
There were two books. The first was the Cyrinishad, Cyric's propaganda about his life. Anyone who read it became insane, and convinced Cyric was right and the only god worth worshipping. His plan was pretty impressive: Read that to the other gods, as evidence in the trial against him for the crime of innocence.
His mistake was reading it himself. With the same results.
The other book was the truth - the only thing that could cure victims of the Cyrinishad. Eventually, he heard that himself, and was cured too.
To answer the original question: In the Realms, gods have always come and gone. The only ones that have remained from the very beginning have been Selune and Shar. Netheril had a completely different roster beyond those two. Garagos, their war god, for example, was defeated by the war god of a different pantheon, Tempus, and thus replaced.
With the divine portfolio comes worship, and with worship comes power. And power, of course, in the game, comes in the form of class levels. It isn't about experience points.
Midnight was given her power by Mystra gradually, groomed to be her replacement.
Cyric got his power when he was given the portfolio of Bane, Bhaal and Myrkul. However, he killed none of them, the power was given to him by AO. Bane was destroyed by Torm, eventually. Bhaal was killed by Mask, in the form of a sword wielded by Cyric. And Myrkul was destroyed by Midnight carrying most of Mystra's power.
Kelemvor was imprisoned for ten years by Mask after being killed by Mask in sword shape. When Cyric broke the sword, in a fit of paranoia, Kelemvor beat him soundly and caused him to escape - which the denizens of the realm of the dead saw. They wanted him as Cyric's replacement. That gave him his power.
The other thing to think about is in 2e, they really didn't stat deities.
With Deities they basically said they were all powerful (sort of like what Paizo does).
AO was the one that granted the powers to Midnight, so with that...well...she got the power to be invincible (well in 2e terms).
Most of that development was in a time where they basically took a similar stance to Paizo where deities were beyond the purvue of characters and hence in normal circumstances (aka...not the Avatar Crisis) they could not be slain.
Of course that all changed in 3e and 3.5 (where I think Midnight was assassinated by Cyric...or...as per the end of 4e Was she really?)
An interesting issue is that even during the avatar crisis, not one deity was slain by a mortal.
It was at the beginning of 4th Ed. that it was stated that Cyric assassinated Mystra. But since I don't play 4th Ed. , and generally consider it a substandard product, I've chosen to ignore all post-3.5 FR developments. 4th Ed. was, in my opinion, "dumbed down" just to suit the "Hack and Slash" crowd.
I have friends who played it that certainly enjoyed it. I think like any other edition it's what the DM and players made of it.
That said, I agree, I hated the changes to the Realms and I just assume that none of it ever took place...
To answer the original question: In the Realms, gods have always come and gone. The only ones that have remained from the very beginning have been Selune and Shar. Netheril had a completely different roster beyond those two. Garagos, their war god, for example, was defeated by the war god of a different pantheon, Tempus, and thus replaced.
Lathander (probably misspelling that, sorry) was also around in Netheril, he just used a different name.
My group considers 4E to be "not right for us". And since I had no desire to fast forward my home campaign 100 years or so, it's 1373 DR (I think, I'd have to check my notes to be sure, campaign is on hiatus) to me.
And yes, Lathander is right.
Lathander, god of dawn, appeared after Netheril fell. Netheril had a sun god called Amaunator, and at the end of 3rd, there was a plotline that he had been Lathander all along. There was also the 4th edition canon, which was changed to 5th.
It was at the beginning of 4th Ed. that it was stated that Cyric assassinated Mystra. But since I don't play 4th Ed. , and generally consider it a substandard product, I've chosen to ignore all post-3.5 FR developments. 4th Ed. was, in my opinion, "dumbed down" just to suit the "Hack and Slash" crowd.
I believe it actually occurred at the end of 3.5 with the modules Shadowdale, Cormyr, and Anauroch.
The results of those were reflected in WotC's changes to the realms in 4e (which I think were universally hated).
However, something happened in the novel line near the end of 4e from what I heard that brought Mystara Back to life (it was something like she simply dispersed herself among her chosen or something like that and came back via that somehow). I believe it was further solidified with the Sundering books and novels and other materials with 5e.
I didn't read the novels myself (they lost me for the most part and I have started reading PF novels instead) but that is what I've heard.
You are correct Grey Wolf Lord as I read some but not all of those Sundering books.
I enjoyed what happened to forgotten realms in 4th ed.
But I also hate forgotten realms.
I enjoyed what happened to forgotten realms in 4th ed.
But I also hate forgotten realms.
LOL. That explains it then!
Cyric did go on to murder Leira, goddess of illusions & deception (with Mask's assist).
With Shar's assistance, he also did in the Midnight Mystra as well. Unfortunately for her, not only did Shar NOT get Mystra's Weave, but her own Shadow Weave was also destroyed in the bargain.