Small crossbows on ropes.


Rules Questions


So, I run a game where I've been asked this:

If my rogue drops his small crossbow, which is attached to my belt with a string/rope, can I pick it up as a free action with quick draw?

I couldn't find an appropiate answer.
My quess qould be yes, but he'll be considered as in difficult terrain, but I'm afraid I'm missing something.
Not that much of a rule juggler.

Hope you can help me. :)


What you are trying to do is very similar to the weapon accessory Weapon Cords.

Weapon Cords wrote:


Weapon cords are 2-foot-long leather straps that attach your weapon to your wrist. If you drop your weapon or are disarmed, you can recover it as a move action, and it never moves any further away from you than an adjacent square. However, you cannot switch to a different weapon without first untying the cord (a full-round action) or cutting it (a move action or an attack, hardness 0, 0 hp). Unlike a locked gauntlet, you can still use a hand with a weapon cord, though a dangling weapon may interfere with finer actions.

Based on that, the action for your character should be at least a move action, even with Quick Draw.


Good advice, but I think I need to specify further.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/bard/archetypes/paizo---bard-a rchetypes/juggler-bard-archetype
My player wants to build a Two Weapon Fighting, Crossbow Juggling Range Combat Bard that juggles his crossbows (light) to (rapid) reload while using more than one crossbow.

Quote:
At 2nd level, a juggler can hold and wield (in other words, “juggle”) up to three items or weapons in his hands. The juggler must be able to hold and wield an object in one hand in order to juggle it.
(...)
As long as he is juggling fewer than three objects, the juggler is considered to have a free hand (for the purposes of drawing a weapon, using somatic components, using Deflect Arrows, and so on).

Am I missing something with that?
I figured it would be possible to reload light crossbows while juggling them (less than max -1).


If he drops it while attached to a cord he's not juggling it.

You're asking two very different questions.

The answer to your first question is as Snowblind indicated. It is best to run it as the weapon cord instead of a string/rope attached to the waist. Actually it doesn't really matter which you call it since the weapon cord doesn't interfere with anything except "finer actions".

Quick draw doesn't factor into the first question.

As for your second question....I'm not actually understanding your second question.

If you're asking, if he can dual wield crossbows and reload them, using juggling? Sure, he counts as having a free hand because he only has two crossbow, so he can use whatever type of action is appropriate to reload them. He's going to need light crossbows and the rapid reload feat.

It's also unclear whether or not he counts as using two hands to fire the crossbow. If he does not he takes the -2 for TWF with crossbows (as listed in the entry) and another -2 for firing the crossbows with only 1 hand.


Hey, thanks for your answers.
I was indeed asking wether he can or can't, so thanks for the clarification (and sorry for my bad explanation), Claxon.

Also, I re-read the question by my player. Apparently he wanted to know wether we can houserule it to be a free instead of a swift action.
(He apparently builds something using vital strike and stuff, doing 6d6 dmg per shot. Enlarge and bigger weapons and stuff.
Smells kinda munchkin-ny or am I wrong?)

Scarab Sages

Nah, Vital Strike is actually pretty bad, in that it can only be done as a standard action. Just remember, Enlarge Person doesn't work on projectile weapons, and you can only have one physical and virtual size increase.


Ah I asked some more and apparently I misunderstodd my playxer a bit (which was his fault for the way he described it, though xD)
Anyway, his fist concept was the juggler with quickdraw.
That would work as we figured out.
His, now, second idea was, instead of 2 Lvl Bard für Juggling 2 Lvl Fighter, but using the cords to still be able to dualwield/reload madness the crossbows.

Silver Crusade

If he's vital striking, he can only make 1 attack, so what's the problem with using a swift action? It's not like he needs to reload more than once each round.

Yes, this in general looks munchkin-ny. A weird archetype, odd weapon choice, asking for action economy advantage houserules, using vital strike for anything useful, and oversized weapons. On the other hand, crossbows typically suck anyway, and depending on the level 6d6 per shot (without any modifiers an average of 21 damage) is pretty tame. Honestly my issue is I can't conceive of what this player is possibly trying to accomplish.

EDIT: You cleared it up some. If all he wants is to dual-wield crossbows and not suck, give him repeating hand crossbows or something. You're already looking to houserule, just fix the problem at the source.


Just Level 5, starting the second book of RotRL soon.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1h7DeyTS_PvmBLVi5ix9PElJKFz3ZyFYC4IP M_BTmkAw/pubhtml

I got his build here, now a lot of things fall together.
It's a Zenarcher/Gunslinger Build.

I'll be away for an hour so my respone might take some time.


Staub wrote:

Just Level 5, starting the second book of RotRL soon.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1h7DeyTS_PvmBLVi5ix9PElJKFz3ZyFYC4IP M_BTmkAw/pubhtml

I got his build here, now a lot of things fall together.
It's a Zenarcher/Gunslinger Build.

I'll be away for an hour so my respone might take some time.

Link's not working for me, but those two classes combined alone (alongside the action economy houserule question) reek of some abomination against science being crafted here.


Snowblind wrote:

What you are trying to do is very similar to the weapon accessory Weapon Cords.

Weapon Cords wrote:


Weapon cords are 2-foot-long leather straps that attach your weapon to your wrist. If you drop your weapon or are disarmed, you can recover it as a move action, and it never moves any further away from you than an adjacent square. However, you cannot switch to a different weapon without first untying the cord (a full-round action) or cutting it (a move action or an attack, hardness 0, 0 hp). Unlike a locked gauntlet, you can still use a hand with a weapon cord, though a dangling weapon may interfere with finer actions.
Based on that, the action for your character should be at least a move action, even with Quick Draw.

Might I mention that weapon cords also used to use a lesser action (was it free?), but they increased it because gunslingers were trying to do this specific thing- use the cords to allow them to reload and basically juggle their weapons using only a bought, mundane item.

No, if you want to juggle, you need to at least take two levels of that bard archetype. Or alchemist 2 for extra arms. ETC.

Silver Crusade

If he wants to be a bolt ace he should just be a bolt ace. There's no need to game the system like that. APs (RotRL included) just aren't that hard.

If he has a specific character concept he's going for, in flavor not mechanics, then just rig that to work if needed. I don't let my players ask for specific rule changes; they can tell me what they want to accomplish and I'll make that work in the most balanced way I can manage. It seems like you should start at square one with this guy and figure out where he's trying to get, not what weird path he's taking.

Scarab Sages

The multiclass on its own isn't a bad thing, as there is very little reason to continue bolt ace past 5th level. I'd go Sohei or Fighter instead of Zen Archer, personally, but the multiclass is a good idea.


lemeres wrote:


Might I mention that weapon cords also used to use a lesser action (was it free?), but they increased it because gunslingers were trying to do this specific thing- use the cords to allow them to reload and basically juggle their weapons using only a bought, mundane item.

No, if you want to juggle, you need to at least take two levels of that bard archetype. Or alchemist 2 for extra arms. ETC.

Now that is good to know. Guess I won't step down from that rule then.

I myself don't like to exploit the rules, or, for that matter, go that deep into them myself. I like to dm and usually I have a good feeling for adjusting the battles in difficulty. Up until now, only once did someone die because I went to far, and that was another campaign. :P

Excerpt from Last session, maybe lkittle spoiler?:

they ran into that room full of shadows at the end, 2 of 4 died and 1 almost died as well until they even thought of running away. Saying they can't escape. I mentiond none of their characters knows that because no one made a check, but nonetheless. Now there's two more ghosts.

Thanks a lot for your help.


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Depending on the level and party composition, having your group run into a room full of shadows may have been a bit unfair.

And now you may be having the issue where your player seeing how "unfair" the game is, wants to optimize/munchkinize to hell and back so that they don't encounter the same problem again.


Nah, they've been doing that ever since. Mainly two of them.
I don't even really mind htat much (granted, a bit, but not too much).
These two always try to outshine themselves.

Good example was his lvl 6 something-rogue-ish with +36 to stealth and sleigh-of-hand. :P

Highly optimized with point buy and everything. Did 1d4-1 non-lethal dmg. Trip build.

Scarab Sages

Staub wrote:

So, I run a game where I've been asked this:

If my rogue drops his small crossbow, which is attached to my belt with a string/rope, can I pick it up as a free action with quick draw?

I couldn't find an appropiate answer.
My quess qould be yes, but he'll be considered as in difficult terrain, but I'm afraid I'm missing something.
Not that much of a rule juggler.

Hope you can help me. :)

Just to be clear, the "small" cross bow is small in what respect? As I understand it, undersized crossbows are not an option, so I'm unclear what a small crossbow refers to and how that differs from it just being a crossbow.

Anyway, for rules, the Weapon Cord is what you seek:

Quote:
Weapon Cord: Weapon cords are 2-foot-long leather straps that attach your weapon to your wrist. If you drop your weapon or are disarmed, you can recover it as a swift action, and it never moves any further away from you than an adjacent square. However, you cannot switch to a different weapon without first untying the cord (a full-round action) or cutting it (a move action or an attack, hardness 0, 0 hp). Unlike a locked gauntlet, you can still use a hand with a weapon cord, though a dangling weapon may interfere with finer actions.

As written, it's a swift action to pick it up.

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