Let's say I'm attempting to close The Citadel, so I need to make a combat check. I decide to use Soulshear, which has not yet been redeemed. I fail the first combat check (because sometimes the dice hate you) and discard Soulshear to re-roll my check. Fortunately, I succeed at the second check and thus, close The Citadel and banish all the cards in the stack. Unfortunately, I roll a 1 on a d12 for Soulshear, and then fail to defeat the Servitor Demon that gets summoned, so Soulshear is shuffled into the location deck.
The question: Does Soulshear get shuffled in before the cards are banished for closing the location, and thus is gone with no chance of retrieval (since it's loot from an already completed scenario)? Or does it get shuffled in after the location is finished closing, so I just have to spend an exploration to get it back (I'm assuming since it has no check to acquire, you automatically acquire it when you encounter it)?
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Good timing question. So, you've fulfilled the When Closing requirement... Do you immediately begin the Soulshear Corruption mechanic, or the closing procedure of Before Closing actions (none), banish the non-villain cards in the location deck, (if no villains) turn the location over, then perform on-closing actions...
Without an official response (or someone who reads rules better'n I do), I'd say that when multiple things happen at once, choose the order.
I don't have my cards with me but I would check to see if the word 'immediately' pops up anywhere on Soulshear or the rulebook to perhaps get an idea for what needs to happen first. If that doesn't show up, then you choose the order seems to be the default.
It is a bit of a pickle. The loot is automatically acquired. That is covered on page 24 of the WotR rulebook.
The Soulshear though, that is a bit more of a pickle. Imagine using it on a monster with 2 checks to defeat and discarding it to reroll the dice.
Comparing it to Blackaxe, it might need to say something similar (about triggering after the encounter).
Sadly, your Soulshear would be gone in that case. But there is a small chance of later retrieval -- if during a scenario in Adventure 4 or later you find yourself short on Weapons at the end of the scenario and need to fetch them from the box, you can pick up Soulshear again.
Let's look at why it's gone:
For your combat check, reveal this card to use your Strength or Melee skill + 1d10+4. If not proficient with weapons, the difficulty of this check is increased by 4. If you fail this check, you may discard this card to reroll the dice; take the new result. If you reroll the dice and the card has the Corrupted trait, roll 1d12; on a 1, summon and defeat this adventure's servitor demon or shuffle Soulshear into your location deck.
Next up, we have the following rule from the rulebook about summoning and encountering things:
If you're told to summon and encounter a card, this immediately starts a new encounter. If you're already in an encounter, complete the encounter with the summoned card before continuing the original encounter.
The encounter with the servitor demon if you roll a 1 happens immediately after you reroll the dice and before you finish the encounter with the original card -- it even happens before you attempt any other checks in that encounter, such as checks to recharge spells. Sadly, if you fail the reroll you'll still need to take damage if applicable due to failing the check, since you already "took the new result" before getting to the sentence about rolling the 1d12.
Putting that all together, I want to give an example that highlights the sequencing:
Crowe encounters a Mad Knight, and has Soulshear (still Corrupted) and the spell Heat Metal in his hand. Crowe additionally has put 1 skill feat into Strength and has checked the power feat "You gain the skill Arcane: Charisma +3." It is Adventure 2.
Monster 1 - Human, Cavalier, Veteran
Check to defeat: Combat 13
The difficulty of the check to defeat is increased by the scenario's adventure deck number.
Before you act, if you have the Divine skill, the Mad Knight deals 1d4+1 Combat damage to you.
If defeated, draw a random blessing that has the Corrupted trait from the box.
Discard this card to add 1d4+1 and the Fire trait to a combat check by a character at your location.
Discard this card to add 2 dice to any check by a character at your location to defeat a barrier that has the Trap or Lock trait.
After playing this card, if you do not have either the Arcane or Divine skill, banish it; otherwise, you may succeed at an Arcane 11 or Divine 9 check to recharge this card instead of discarding it.
Now, let's step through the steps of an encounter to see what happens with Crowe and the Mad Knight...
1. Apply Any Effects That Happen When You Encounter a Card: None.
2. Apply Any Evasion Effects: None.
3. Apply Any Effects That Happen Before You Act: Crowe does not have the Divine skill, so nothing happens here.
4. Attempt the Check: This makes us walk through the following steps:
4.1. Determine Which Skill You're Using: Crowe plays Soulshear to determine he is using his Melee skill.
4.2. Determine the Difficulty: Mad Knight's veteran power kicks in and makes the check difficulty a 15.
4.3. Play Cards and Use Powers That Affect Your Check (Optional): Crowe plays Heat Metal to add another 1d4+1 and the Fire trait. Per FAQ, the spell is set aside for now until we make the check to determine if we can recharge it or not.
4.4. Assemble Your Dice: Crowe is going to be rolling 1d12 + 1d10 + 1d4 + 7 (+4 from Soulshear, +1 from Heat Metal, +1 from Melee bonus, +1 from Strength skill feat).
4.5. Attempt the Roll: Crowe manages to roll all 1's, for a total of 10. This obviously won't do, so he discards Soulshear to roll again, this time getting a 10, 6, and 2 for a total of 25. The check is a success.
4.6. Take Damage, If Necessary: Not necessary for us since 25 is greater than or equal to 15.
4.7. At this point (immediately after the check is complete), Crowe rolls 1d12 for Soulshear and gets a 1. Crowe must now summon and encounter the servitor demon. The current encounter gets put on hold while that happens. Crowe loses this encounter, so Soulshear is shuffled into the location deck. Note that Heat Metal is set aside for the entire duration of this encounter.
5. Attempt the Next Check, If Needed: Crowe attempts the Arcane 11 check to recharge Heat Metal.
6. Apply Any Effects That Happen After You Act: None.
7. Resolve the Encounter: Crowe defeated the Mad Knight, so at this point he draws a random blessing that has the Corrupted trait from the box.
"But wait," you say, "I was talking about closing the Citadel, not doing this in the middle of an encounter. Is it different in that case?" Unfortunately, the answer is no, for the exact same reason as above (recall that you're told to immediately start the new encounter when told to summon and encounter a card). I went through the example of an encounter first because it was easier to illustrate and because it let me highlight a couple of nuances to the rule that I could not by using the Citadel as the example, but the same principles apply to a closing check.
When you have the opportunity and want to close a location, do whatever the location's When Closing section says. ... If you succeed at meeting the When Closing requirement, search the location deck for villains. If you find any, banish all non-villain cards from the location deck. The location is not closed--but at least you know where the villains are!
If you didn't find any villains, perform the When Permanently Closed effect: First, apply any effects that say "before closing." Then banish all of the cards from the location deck; it is now closed. Finally, apply any effects that say "on closing" and flip the location card over.
While it isn't nicely formatted like the encounter steps are, there are discrete steps to closing a location, so let's go over them:
1. Do whatever the location's When Closing section says: We attempt our Combat 13 check.
1.1. Determine Which Skill You're Using: Crowe plays Soulshear to determine he is using his Melee skill.
1.2. Determine the Difficulty: Mad Knight's veteran power kicks in and makes the check difficulty a 15.
1.3. Play Cards and Use Powers That Affect Your Check (Optional): Crowe plays Heat Metal to add another 1d4+1 and the Fire trait. Per FAQ, the spell is set aside for now until we make the check to determine if we can recharge it or not.
1.4. Assemble Your Dice: Crowe is going to be rolling 1d12 + 1d10 + 1d4 + 7 (+4 from Soulshear, +1 from Heat Metal, +1 from Melee bonus, +1 from Strength skill feat).
1.5. Attempt the Roll: Crowe manages to roll all 1's, for a total of 10. This obviously won't do, so he discards Soulshear to roll again, this time getting a 10, 6, and 2 for a total of 25. The check is a success.
1.6. Take Damage, If Necessary: This is not a check against a monster, so we do not take damage from it even if we did fail.
1.7. At this point (immediately after the check is complete), Crowe rolls 1d12 for Soulshear and gets a 1. Crowe must now summon and encounter the servitor demon. Crowe loses this encounter, so Soulshear is shuffled into the location deck. Note that Heat Metal is set aside for the entire duration of this encounter.
2. Crowe attempts the Arcane 11 check to recharge Heat Metal. We do this now because we are told to "Finish One Thing Before You Start Something Else" (p29) -- the recharge check for Heat Metal is treated as part of the process of doing the Combat check since it was played on the Combat check. There's no "Attempt the next check, if needed" step of closing a location, but it should be treated as if it exists; otherwise your spell is left in limbo until after doing a ton of unrelated closing stuff, which is weird.
3. Search the location deck for villains: Let's pretend we didn't find any. If we did, we'd skip step 4 below, but we'd still be banishing Soulshear.
4. Perform the When Permanently Closed effect:
4.1. Apply any effects that say "before closing": None.
4.2. Banish all of the cards from the location deck; it is now closed: Byebye Soulshear, you will be missed.
4.3. Apply any effects that say "on closing" and flip the location card over: We end our turn (which involves resetting our hand, but we cannot play any cards or use any powers while ending our turn)
I'm curious about the Heat Metal timing.
It adds to the combat check, sure, but why does it wait until the combat check is complete before being recharged?
From here, it seems like "Finish one thing..." rule tells me to play it, add its benefits to the check, then recharge it, then go to the next thing that might affect my check (like a blessing).
Whereas you're saying that because it adds to the combat check, that's the "one thing" that needs finishing before moving on with the rest of the spell.
Which strikes me as an unnecessary delay - you'd immediately recharge a blessing that matches the top of the blessing discard pile, no? Or would it be set aside as well?
Sadly, your Soulshear would be gone in that case...
I'll have to respectfully disagree until someone official chimes in otherwise.
Setting aside my distinct gut feeling that Soulsheer's summon should trigger after the encounter, I'm not sure your Mad Knight transposes 1:1 on a Closing check (it *would* transpose if the To Close was "summon and defeat monster").
So I'd argue, from your Closing Check example, only the following steps apply:
1. Do whatever the location's When Closing section says: We attempt our Combat 13 check.
1.1. Determine Which Skill You're Using: Crowe plays Soulshear to determine he is using his Melee skill.
1.2. Determine the Difficulty: Combat 13, no modifiers.
1.3. Play Cards and Use Powers That Affect Your Check (Optional): Crowe plays Heat Metal to add another 1d4+1 and the Fire trait. Per FAQ, the spell is set aside for now until we make the check to determine if we can recharge it or not.
1.4. Assemble Your Dice: Crowe is going to be rolling 1d12 + 1d10 + 1d4 + 7 (+4 from Soulshear, +1 from Heat Metal, +1 from Melee bonus, +1 from Strength skill feat).
1.5. Attempt the Roll: Crowe manages to roll all 1's, for a total of 10. This obviously won't do, so he discards Soulshear to roll again, this time getting a 10, 6, and 2 for a total of 25. The check is a success.
Now, in the close check there is no "Take Damage" or "after you act" or "resolve the encounter". The moment those dice come up a 25 (your step 4.5) you have succeeded at the check and that's it. And I'd argue that all of your steps 3 to 4.3 are immediate and inseparable consequence of "succeeding at the Close Check". This is where for me "finish one thing before you start another" comes up, and I'd close the location before proceeding with summoning a Servitor Demon.
Also, you quote:
"If you're told to summon and encounter a card, this immediately starts a new encounter."
While the summon must be 'immediate' to the instruction to do so, make note that you're not told to summon until you get to the "roll 1d12" power.
In your Mad Knight example, I'd argue that by the same token by which you won't roll the d12 in 4.5 *before* 4.6 Take Damage (I guess you invoke "finish one thing.." in regards to Attempt the Check), you could also not roll the 1d12 as long as 7.Resolve the Encounter.
Since the 'roll 1d12' in not a 'check', it doesn't parse into the Attempt the Next Check steps into the encounter and it may be argued it's a separate power that's put 'on hold' until after the encounter is resolved (and there's nothing that otherwise indicates what the 'one thing' you must 'finish' before the d12 roll is - Attempt the Check or Resolve the Encounter).
EDIT: As for the Heat Metal played on the Citadel's closing Combat check - at best, I'd assume the Recharge check to be "at the same time" as the "roll 1d12" power, and thus the order is left to the player to decide.
I'm curious about the Heat Metal timing.
It adds to the combat check, sure, but why does it wait until the combat check is complete before being recharged?From here, it seems like "Finish one thing..." rule tells me to play it, add its benefits to the check, then recharge it, then go to the next thing that might affect my check (like a blessing).
Whereas you're saying that because it adds to the combat check, that's the "one thing" that needs finishing before moving on with the rest of the spell.
Which strikes me as an unnecessary delay - you'd immediately recharge a blessing that matches the top of the blessing discard pile, no? Or would it be set aside as well?
Finish one thing in fact tells you the exact opposite.
Attempt the Next Check, If Needed. If another check is required, resolve it now. For example, some boons allow you to attempt to recharge them, and some banes require a second check to defeat. Repeat this step until you resolve all such checks.
Finish One Thing Before You Start Something Else. You do many things in a specific order, and you need to finish doing each thing before you do the next thing. You move before you explore, not after. If a spell used in a check can be recharged, finish the first check before you attempt your check to recharge it. If a villain requires two sequential combat checks, finish the first before starting the second. Don't start a new process until you've finished the last one. (That said, if the game doesn't specify an order for things, you decide the order.)
You cannot interrupt a check with another check, so the check to recharge Heat Metal waits until after the Combat check is completed. For encounters, that would be in the step I quoted above (it even explicitly mentions recharge checks for boons). Outside of encounters, it would just happen immediately after the initial check as a consequence of "Finish One Thing Before You Start Something Else." -- you played the card requiring the second check as part of making the first check. As such, that second check is still part of the "process" of attempting the first check, even though the first check is already complete at that point, because you need to attempt that second check as a direct consequence of things you did on the first one.
As for your blessing question, it would be recharged immediately. You only set the card aside while processing its effects, and that includes the effect about recharging if the top card matches. Since that recharge effect is not dependent on making a second check, you just do it right away as part of the process of playing the blessing. Really the only time something would linger in the "set aside" zone is when you need to perform a check to recharge or do some other action that needs to wait until after the current check is complete according to the rulebook.
Sadly, your Soulshear would be gone in that case...I'll have to respectfully disagree until someone official chimes in otherwise.
Setting aside my distinct gut feeling that Soulsheer's summon should trigger after the encounter, I'm not sure your Mad Knight transposes 1:1 on a Closing check (it *would* transpose if the To Close was "summon and defeat monster").
So I'd argue, from your Closing Check example, only the following steps apply:
1. Do whatever the location's When Closing section says: We attempt our Combat 13 check.
1.1. Determine Which Skill You're Using: Crowe plays Soulshear to determine he is using his Melee skill.
1.2. Determine the Difficulty: Combat 13, no modifiers.
1.3. Play Cards and Use Powers That Affect Your Check (Optional): Crowe plays Heat Metal to add another 1d4+1 and the Fire trait. Per FAQ, the spell is set aside for now until we make the check to determine if we can recharge it or not.
1.4. Assemble Your Dice: Crowe is going to be rolling 1d12 + 1d10 + 1d4 + 7 (+4 from Soulshear, +1 from Heat Metal, +1 from Melee bonus, +1 from Strength skill feat).
1.5. Attempt the Roll: Crowe manages to roll all 1's, for a total of 10. This obviously won't do, so he discards Soulshear to roll again, this time getting a 10, 6, and 2 for a total of 25. The check is a success.Now, in the close check there is no "Take Damage" or "after you act" or "resolve the encounter". The moment those dice come up a 25 (your step 4.5) you have succeeded at the check and that's it. And I'd argue that all of your steps 3 to 4.3 are immediate and inseparable consequence of "succeeding at the Close Check". This is where for me "finish one thing before you start another" comes up, and I'd close the location before proceeding with summoning a Servitor Demon.
Also, you quote:
"If you're told to summon and encounter a card, this immediately starts a new encounter."
While the summon must be 'immediate' to the instruction to do so, make note that you're not told to...
I cannot comment as to Soulshear's intent, however I do feel that it transposes over to the Closing check because that would make the rules consistent, and I happen to like consistent rules.
I state that the 1d12 roll happens after taking damage because we are told in Soulshear that we "reroll the dice; take the new result" in the sentence immediately before the one telling us to roll 1d12. To me, take the new result tells me that I take what I rolled as the result of the check, which means the check is finished at that point in time (in other words, damage happens immediately after that sentence). The other way would mean you'd have the ability to summon and encounter something in the middle of a check, and checks are generally indivisible units in PACG -- checks can't be nested in other checks, and since encounters involve checks, that means any summon and encounter effect should happen after the initial check is completed. While there is no explicit rule that I'm aware of that says this, it is heavily implied throughout the rulebook (to the point the game literally breaks down if nested checks are allowed -- recall you can only play one card of each type during a check, and if a nested check happens then you cannot play any types of cards on that nested check that you played on the initial check).
As I stated in my post immediately above this one, "Finish One Thing Before You Start Something Else" in my mind means that both Soulshear's 1d12 power as well as Heat Metal's recharge are part of the same "process" of attempting the closing check, as such they must be finished before you start the new process of actually closing the location because that involves a whole slew of new steps that may have you do other things. Soulshear happens before Heat Metal because we're told to immediately summon and defeat the servitor demon if we roll a 1, and we definitely roll before being able to recharge Heat Metal because that roll is part of processing Soulshear's effects, which we need to finish processing before starting any new checks.
If we look at it the other way, e.g. closing the location is the same "process" as attempting the close check, and rolling the 1d12 and recharging Heat Metal were deemed separate processes, we see again that the game falls apart. Citadel's on closing tells us that we end our turn, and since that is still part of the same process of "succeeding at the close check" in your interpretation, that means we end our turn before we roll the 1d12 for Soulshear or attempt to recharge Heat Metal, which is clearly absurd. That is why I argue that Finish One Thing Before You Start Something Else tells us that Soulshear's power and Heat Metal's powers are part of the same process of attempting the close check due to being direct consequences of things that happened during the check, and actually going through the motions to close a location is its own separate process that happens after the check is complete.
Chief Technical Officer
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I think that Soulshear and the summoned demon are introducing complications that aren't actually germane, and that we can simplify this quite a bit.
I think the question here really boils down to this:
A location has a check to close. I play a rechargeable card on that check and succeed. Do I close the location before I recharge the card or after?
(Normally, the answer is "it doesn't matter," but Soulshear introduces a reason to care.)
I see three possible answers:
• Recharge the card first. (I think skizzerz' argument suggests this is the answer, because "Finish One Thing Before You Start Something Else" tells you to finish things related to the check to close.)
• Close the location first. (I think Longshot11's argument suggests this is the answer, because "Finish One Thing Before You Start Something Else" tells you to finish closing the location.)
• The game doesn't specify the order, so you get to.
Does that sum it up?
That's my understanding of the issue.
I see three possible answers:
• Recharge the card first. (I think skizzerz' argument suggests this is the answer, because "Finish One Thing Before You Start Something Else" tells you to finish things related to the check to close.)
• Close the location first. (I think Longshot11's argument suggests this is the answer, because "Finish One Thing Before You Start Something Else" tells you to finish closing the location.)
• The game doesn't specify the order, so you get to.
Does that sum it up?
Yup, that's about the gist of it.
Also, during encounter specifically, would the "roll d12" happen:
- after Attempt the Roll, immediately after the dice are re-rolled
- immediately after Take Damage if Necessary - so after any damage from the failed re-roll
- or, does the d12 roll has a "Attempt the Next Check" status - so I can chose its order together with any pending spell recharges
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Chief Technical Officer
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I think that Soulshear and the summoned demon are introducing complications that aren't actually germane, and that we can simplify this quite a bit.
I think the question here really boils down to this:
A location has a check to close. I play a rechargeable card on that check and succeed. Do I close the location before I recharge the card or after?
(Normally, the answer is "it doesn't matter," but Soulshear introduces a reason to care.)
I see three possible answers:
• Recharge the card first. (I think skizzerz' argument suggests this is the answer, because "Finish One Thing Before You Start Something Else" tells you to finish things related to the check to close.)
• Close the location first. (I think Longshot11's argument suggests this is the answer, because "Finish One Thing Before You Start Something Else" tells you to finish closing the location.)
• The game doesn't specify the order, so you get to.
Does that sum it up?
Based on the current rules, I would say "the game doesn't specify the order, so you get to." If we had to come down on one side or the other, both Mike and I would say "recharge the card first," and indeed, that's what Obsidian does. I'm not sure it's worth clarifying, as it rarely matters.
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Chief Technical Officer
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Also, during encounter specifically, would the "roll d12" happen:
- after Attempt the Roll, immediately after the dice are re-rolled
- immediately after Take Damage if Necessary - so after any damage from the failed re-roll
- or, does the d12 roll has a "Attempt the Next Check" status - so I can chose its order together with any pending spell recharges
That should happen after the check. (Added to FAQ.)