Does finesse training work on Spear Dancing ?

[A Fool Man]

FEAT:
Spear Dancing Spiral:While using Spear Dancing Style, you gain the benefit of Weapon Finesse with the chosen weapon if it is appropriately sized for a creature of your size category. In addition, you can use any feat or ability that functions with a quarterstaff with your chosen weapon.

Rogue(Unchained) ability:
Finesse Training (Ex): At 1st level, a rogue gains Weapon Finesse as a bonus feat. In addition, starting at 3rd level, she can select any one type of weapon that can be used with Weapon Finesse (such as rapiers or daggers). Once this choice is made, it cannot be changed. Whenever she makes a successful melee attack with the selected weapon, she adds her Dexterity modifier instead of her Strength modifier to the damage roll. If any effect would prevent the rogue from adding her Strength modifier to the damage roll, she does not add her Dexterity modifier. The rogue can select a second weapon at 11th level and a third at 19th level.

So,if I have the Spear Dancing Spiral feat and weapon from Finesse Training ability,can I choose,let's say,Lance,to add my Dexterity modifier to the damage roll?

[Imbicatus]

Expect table variation. The key sentence of the rules is "In addition, starting at 3rd level, she can select any one type of weapon that can be used with Weapon Finesse (such as rapiers or daggers)."

There are two equally valid interpretations of that. One, if the weapon is one you can use with weapon finesse you can select it. This would mean Spear Danacing Spiral or dervish dance would work. Two, it means weapons that can be normally used with weapon finesse; i.e. are either light or have a special line stating they can be finessed. Which means you only get the standard light weapons, rapier, whip, aldori dueling sword, elven curve blade, estoc, branch spear, and anything else I'm forgetting.

I'd allow it, but ask your GM.

[Running Wolf]

As a DM I would say no because lances must be used on horseback. In real life I work around people who actually joust and having held a lance and seen their usage you need to be on horseback.

[Rysky]

Running Wolf wrote:

As a DM I would say no because lances must be used on horseback. In real life I work around people who actually joust and having held a lance and seen their usage you need to be on horseback.

Except in Pathfinder, they do not. They're better if you do, but you can in fact use a lance on foot.

[Running Wolf]

It pretty much comes down to what the DM will allow

[Imbicatus]

Running Wolf wrote:

It pretty much comes down to what the DM will allow

Yes, but then you move into house rules. Which is fine, but House Rules aren't the same as the rules.

[KainPen]

no where does it say lance must be use from horseback? where did you get that from. Lance are listed as two handed weapons. they may be wielded with one hand from while mounted and receive extra damage from charged while mounted. but they can most certainly can be used two handed while not mounted.

As for op what Imbicatus says holds true. expect table variation. I personally would allow it as you already invest heavily to even get make it finessable. I would like to think it is in the spirit of the rules, that allow you to use a str belt to quality to use power attack, but you could not use power attack in anti magic field; or how monk or brawler can use all the two weapon fighting requirement feats while flurrying, but only while doing so, ect.

in your case you only qualify to use Finesse training while using spear dancing style. if something stop you from using that. then you can't use finesse training on said weapon.

This is the reason I would allow it, but I also see reason why others would not.

[A Fool Man]

Thanks a lot,there was a debate between me and my DM,I think I'll use the weapon Elven branched spear instead to avoid the dispute.

[Imbicatus]

Fool Lv wrote:

Thanks a lot,there was a debate between me and my DM,I think I'll use the weapon Elven branched spear instead to avoid the dispute.

You might as well, as they both require a proficiency feat for a rogue.

[MadGnome]

By RAW, it seems pretty clear. It doesn't say "any one type of weapon that can NORMALLY be used with Weapon Finesse". You took a feat that allows you to use weapon finesse on a lance, so it should work.

Having said that, this situation is not covered by Herolab. I tried it when building a Goblin using a Horsechopper (which was confirmed to be a polearm in a paizo blog entry).

[Saethori]

Additional catch: Spear Dancing Style does not say you can use Weapon Finesse with your weapon while using the style. It says you gain the benefits of it. While similar, the two wordings are in fact distinct, and this highlights the difference.

Gaining the benefits of Weapon Finesse allows you to use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength for the purpose of attack rolls with the relevant weapons. Since it says you gain the benefits explicitly with the chosen weapon, it overrides both Weapon Finesse's ability to apply to all applicable weapons, as well as the fact that the weapon you have chosen is, more likely than not, incompatible with Weapon Finesse.

But the spear still isn't a finesseable weapon. Not even while in the style. Not even if you were in the style the whole time you gained your new level in Unchained Rogue. You're just pretending it is for the sake of the benefits the feat explicitly specifies.

[Ryan Freire]

Just be a half elf and take the elven branched spear...problem solved.

[Abraham spalding]

I have an faq thread here where I have listed ouut all the contradictory faqs on this subject. I mention it so you and your gm can have them all listed for ease reference.

[MadGnome]

Saethori wrote:

Additional catch: Spear Dancing Style does not say you can use Weapon Finesse with your weapon while using the style. It says you gain the benefits of it. While similar, the two wordings are in fact distinct, and this highlights the difference.

Hmm. Good point.

[Hayato Ken]

As there is already the elven branched spear as an exotic weapon (hint), i would go that route with an UC rogue.
Spear dancing style could then be a very nice level 7 (or 5 with half-elf or human) feat.

Weapon Finesse - Weapon Focus - Two Weapon Fighting - Spear Dancing Style - SD Spiral - SD Reach.
+ quarterstaff master, dirty fighting - tripping staff perhaps.

That´s quite a feat investment overall though.

[Kazaan]

I'm going to have to agree with the "no, it doesn't" conclusion. Just as with Dervish Dance, the feat doesn't cause the weapon to become finesse-able. It just says you gain the benefit of Weapon Finesse while using it and uses Weapon Finesse as a feat tax. Arguably, if you manage to get the style sans-prereqs, you'd gain the finesse benefit even if you didn't have the Weapon Finesse feat. So even with the style feat chain, your chosen weapon isn't even interacting with Weapon Finesse; thus, Finesse Training does not even enter the equation.

On further study, I think this might actually be a good choice for using a Nodachi. Nodachi are polearms so you could "spear dance" with it, using it as a double weapon, getting Dex to attack, and it doesn't matter that you lose reach since Nodachi don't have reach to start with. Even better, if you take Spear Dancing Reach, you can grant reach to a Nodachi as a swift action (affecting either end or both at your option). And you can still take up all the Quarterstaff feats to boot (wield the Nodachi one-handed ^-^). Probably better for a Fighter build, though, as it is feat intensive, doesn't benefit from finesse training, and you'll want Weapon Training to go along with it to make up the damage lost from investing in Dex.

[MadGnome]

Hayato Ken wrote:

As there is already the elven branched spear as an exotic weapon (hint), i would go that route with an UC rogue.

Spear dancing style could then be a very nice level 7 (or 5 with half-elf or human) feat.

Weapon Finesse - Weapon Focus - Two Weapon Fighting - Spear Dancing Style - SD Spiral - SD Reach.
+ quarterstaff master, dirty fighting - tripping staff perhaps.

That´s quite a feat investment overall though.

You can get to Spear Dancing Style by level 4 with a Human, Elf or Half Elf and UC Rogue with Elven spear proficiency. This gets you dex to hit and damage. If you go for UC Rogue- Swashbuckler archetype you can get to SD spiral by level 4. Reach would have to wait until 5.

Edit-turns out you don't need the swashbuckler archetype. Use the weapon training talent to get weapon focus and combat trick to get spiral by level 4.

Hmm this is turning out to be a nice build. Switching to Slayer after that only loses you one BAB total on your build. Selecting Ranger Combat Style as a slayer talent at level 6 gets you Power Attack without needing to meet the str prerequisite. At five pick up combat reflexes, and you have a very nice reach build with a lot of damage potential.

[Hayato Ken]

Of course you could have that all by level 4.
A UC rogue with reach really wants 2 other feats as well though:
-Phalanx formation
-Gang-Up.

You really want to get that sneak attack in and that´s an awesome way to do that actually.

[Rub-Eta]

MadGnome wrote:

It doesn't say "any one type of weapon that can NORMALLY be used with Weapon Finesse".

Should it really have to say this? You can't use absence of disproof as proof.

The problem is really the line;

Dancing Spear wrote:

you gain the benefit of Weapon Finesse with the chosen weapon

- which is not really the same as;

Finesse Training wrote:

that can be used with Weapon Finesse (such as rapiers or daggers)

Keep in mind that drawing conclusions here would probably also affect the Agile Weapon Special Ability.

[swoosh]

I dunno. A weapon that can gain the benefits of weapon finesse seems pretty obviously a weapon that works with weapon finesse, sort of by definition.

Quote:

Keep in mind that drawing conclusions here would probably also affect the Agile Weapon Special Ability.

Well yeah, and if 'gain the beneit of' is fundamentally distinct from the feat itself that has some pretty sweeping rammifications too.