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Right now this is just theory crafting but if it works I think it would be fun to play in a home game.
The basic idea is taking brown fur transmuter for a level and using the human bonus feat to pick up extra exploit at level one.I'd take school understanding (transmutation) and bloodline development (I don't know what yet). Then I'd dip a level of wizard and a level of sorcerer. Both exploits say that if you gain an actual bloodline or school from another source it lets you count your arcanist levels for progression of "powers and abilities." Then I'd take the rest of my levels in arcanist. I'd take magical knack to keep caster level up and to answer the BAB concerns my GM gave us mythic teirs in the game I'd play in so I can take the archmage ability to treat CL as BAB while transformed. At that point I'd have a 19th level school and Bloodline (barring items to raise the level of them of course).
So my questions:
1. what bloodline synergizes best with a transmutation/melee specialist?
2. IS this just a terrible idea?
You're getting your lv2 spells at lv6, the level you'd normally be getting third level spells.
I don't know about mythic, but are you sure you want to rely on that for your accuracy?
Multiclassing like that is terrible, and Brown Fur Transmuter is only good if you have party members that like it too. My Arcanist for a similar character was a Spell Specialist Arcanist so they could qualify for Dragon Disciple. The stat bonuses from that are nice for Melee-focused Transmuters, and since it gives you the Draconic Bloodline it counts as "another source" for Bloodline Development.
You'll have a tough time of it at early levels, so I would suggest staggering the decision to dip for later, possibly after your third or fourth level spells. In fact, I think you might just have to, if I remember the exact texts correctly, as you cannot take the Extra Exploit feat until you've at least had one exploit.
Instead of dipping wizard and taking School Understanding you could consider VMC wizard, if you can take the loss of feats.
I play my casters much more traditionally i.e. keep as much distance from melee as I can, so I don't really have any advice on the sorceror bloodline...
I also have a character like this, dipping sorcerer and using the VMC idea, but without the focus you have. Even though there are times I've struggled with it its such a blast to play. I think you're really going to enjoy it!
for bloodlines, orc or abyssal are normally considered for melee people because of their str boost. Draconic with plans to go dragon disciple are also common for such builds.
I should add that I'd probably start play at level 8 with two or three mythic tiers. Also, I'm imaging the character more as a fighter that will eventually get high level spells.
I'm willing to delay the sorcerer level. If I end up going Orc there's not a real reason to take it until my effective bloodline level is 9 for the inherent strength bonuses.
Comparing it to a martial (we'll do it at arcanist 1/ wizard 1)
I start with say 15 strength, add1 enhancement from the school ability, cast alter self for a +4 size bonus via brown fur and that's a 20 strength at level 2. On par with what a fighter could reasonably have. My arcanist CL is two for natural attacks because of the mythic power shape shifting mastery. That's a +7 to hit. Transform into a troglodyte for claw, claw, bite (1d4+5 three times). That doesn't quite beat a martial but it is three attacks at full BAB (that can be buffed) compared to one. Assuming everything hits (obviously not going to happen but for the purpose of this) that's an average of 22 damage compared to a great sword with power attack (17 damage). I realize it's not perfect but, can still be effective while getting better with age.
I just realized that brown fur doesn't get its abilities until level 3 (4 with the wizard multi class). That's just a +2 to strength so it won't make a huge difference.
Why not leave the multi-class until later? Do you need the school or bloodline powers immediately? If not, you don't lose out by waiting.
I attempted building it and came to the conclusion taking wizard at level 5 is the most optimal (arcanist gets second level spells and the physical enhancement ability is a +2) and sorcerer at 10 is best (atleast for Orc because you get the inherent bonus and might be able to afford a robe of arcane heritage which gives you the +4 bonus at effective level 13).
All in all by level 20, if optimizing strength, I'm getting a 62 strength score (while polymorphed) with a +20 BAB from shapeshifting mastery and magical knack.
My problem now is I don't know what to do with feats. Outside of power attack (at level 3) I don't know what I need. Are there feats that specifically enhance transmutation spells?
Quicken Spell so you can cast a lower level polymorph as needed, Scale and Skin(from Magic Tactics Toolbox) for extra Natural Armor while effected by a transmutation spell, and even the Dimensional feat tree for full-attack fun.
Cass_Ponderovian wrote: My problem now is I don't know what to do with feats. Outside of power attack (at level 3) I don't know what I need. Are there feats that specifically enhance transmutation spells? Spell specialisation and Varisian tattoo would increase the caster level and hence duration.
But like, if your actual plan is to rush in there and break faces, maybe get feats related to that? Are you thinking to use equipment, or just polymorph into forms that don't?
I wonder is varisian tattoo would affect the BAB benefit of shapeshifting mastery?
Ultimately the goal is to go with a form of the dragon spell for polymorph so items could be useful before shifting but not after. Although the transformation spell would allow me to use weapons. I don't want to take weapon focus because the types of attacks will be changing. I don't really know what I want to do in combat besides damage.
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Arguably Energy Attunement lets you change what you're polymorphed into without casting another spell. This may be useful, especially if you've changed into something which can't speak for some reason.
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Shapeshifting Mastery is FUN!
So is diversifying!
It hadn't occurred to me to try both on the same character. Sounds like it would be a blast!
Thanks, Ravingdork. This character isn't going to come online until mid level and needs atleast one mythic tier to work, but the numbers I'm getting are really good. I'm out damaging the best barbarian or Paladin I've ever made.
I know this isn't representative of the whole build but at Wizard 1/Sorcerer 1/ Arcanist 18 using form of the Dragon III against a CR 20 Oppnent the DPR is 504. The only buffs I have applied are a CL 20 Greater Magic Fang and a keen amulet of Mighty Fists.
I do have a sample version of it at level 5 with a single mythic tier that can kill most CR appropriate enemies in 1-3 rounds. The build seems fun and I feel like it could be an interesting BBEG.
At max level this thing can kill Lucifer in two rounds (only missing on a 1) using vital strike. I feel like it might be fun to write up a build guide. It's super strong at high level, but is comparable to a martial at lower levels.
Tell me more about your build. I'm interested in an arcane polymorfer that doesn't bad.
After looking over what's taking place here, I'm not sure I see the point in taking School Understanding. It doesn't really grant you much. I guess the 8th level ability is nifty, but the first level one is surpasses by a 2nd level spell (say, Bull's Strength or Bear's Endurance). I'd save the level and just go Arcanist/Sorcerer (Orc).
If I could afford herolab I'd just post it but a brief description will have to do. The basic goal is to get your strength and caster level for a polymorph spell as high as possible. Since I was just theorycrafting I based my numbers off of Form of the Dragon III.
I started with 17 strength and put the half elf bonus to make it 19. I also took the racial trait mordant envoy (+1transmutstion CL). 15 Int to start because you only NEED it to be 19 to get 19th level spells. Traits were magical knack and lore keeper.
Take the school understanding (shape change) exploit before level 5. At level 5 dip wizard and your arcanist levels stack with wizard to determine school powers. At level 9 take the bloodline development exploit (Orc) and dip sorcerer at 10. Same story; arcanist levels stack with sorcerer levels for bloodline powers. So at level 10 you get the wizard school at 9th level (+2 enhancement bonus in strength that buffs every fifth level) and 9th level Orc blood line (+2 inherent bonus to strength or +4 with robes of arcane heritage).
You'll need mythic tiers to make the build work. I think it's best with atleast 3. Go archmage (maybe dual path with champion if you want fleet warrior). The first path ability needs to be shapeshifting mastery. It add half your tier to polymorph CL and let's you use the caster level of the spell as BAB instead of your standard BAB. Next take mythic bloodline and mythic school. These add 4 level to the effective bonuses of you school and bloodline. So at 11th level you have an adjusted wizard school of 14 (+3 strength bonus) and a bloodline of 18 (+6 inherent bonus in strength). Add mythic spell casting as a feat or a 4th teir path ability.
My feats to this point are: spell focus (transmutation), varasian tattoo (transmutation) power attack and then a metamagic feat of your choice. (With the remaining feats you can customize. Eventually you want spell specialization and spell perfection in the spell of your choice. I also took mythic power attack
Required exploits are: school understanding, bloodline development, potent magic, metamagic knowledge and greater metamagic knowledge (the last two let you qualify for spell perfection.
By level 20 I got a strength of 62: 17 to start, 2 from race, 5 from leveling, 6 inherent bonus, 6 from a belt (at level 20 for the school you switch the two +5 enhancements into dex and con), 10 from mythic Tiers, 2 from the mythic path ability that lets you add to an ability score and an 18 size bonus from mythi form of the dragon ( remember brown fur transmuter lets you add an additional 2 to an ability score).
Caster level for form of the dragon 3 is 34. 18 from arcanist levels, 2 from magical knack, 1 from lore keeper, 5 from shapeshifting mastery, 1 from varisian tattoo, 2 from spell specialization, 3 from spell perfection, 1 from a orange ioun stone, and 1 from mordant envoy. This can be augmented up to level 38 by using potent magic in conjunction with the archmage's wild arcana.
So at level 20/ archmage 10 you Bab while using FOD3 is 38 and strength is 62 for a +26 bonus. That's +64 to hit. Mythic Power attack at 38 BAB is -10, +30. A dragons claw will hit at +52 and do 3d6+56. You get 6 attack on dragon form. If you want to go with mythic vital strike the claw could do up to 3d6+224. The bite is even higher as it gets time and a half in strength and power attack. 3d8+84 (normal) or 12d8+376 (vital strike).
As a side note the Orc bloodline gets a the power "touch of rage" that you could use as a swift action if you take quicken SLA. That's a free +10 to attack and damage on all of your attacks.
All and all that's massive Melee damage with access to 9th level spells. There's also an exploit that lets you cast while polymorphed. Your AC will be good (not great) because you get large natural armor bonuse. Your will save is good but the other two are average. Another good thing about the build is you save money on items that buff physical ability scores so you can spend that to shore up weaknesses.
I'm sure there are things I'm forgetting and/or missing, but that's the basics of the build.
-Cass
I know saving money isn't the best reason to dip, but you get the full bloodline by level 17 this way and lets you have enhancement bonuses that can't be stolen. Its really personal choice, but at level 5 you have the equivalent of a 4000 gp item that you can spend on other things.
Hypothetically you could wade into combat naked and still have the same strength bonus. If you're into that kinda thing ;).
I should make note that not dipping is best if you want to maintain earlier spell levels. I don't think high level spells are super important to the build becaus you can choose an earlier beast shape spell to focus on and retrain when you get to a higher level. Also, you'll be in Melee as much as possible so spells can be used more sparingly than normal.
The build relying on mythic levels is where I lose interest. That makes this build really dependent on a very specific kind of game.
If I built it without mythic, and I'd have to have my little heart REALLY set on being able to turn furry, this is what I'd do:
25 pt. build
Half-elf Arcanist (Brown-fur transmuter) 12/Sorcerer 1 (Level 13 because that's when it's a viable option)
Str 28 16 +2 for race, +6 for spell, +4 bloodline
Dex 14
Con 14
Int 19 +3 for level
Wis 9
Cha 7
Traits: Magical Knack, Reactionary
Feats: Mage's tattoo, Improved unarmed strike, Improved grapple, Improved natural attack (claws), Power attack, Furious focus,
Exploits: Shift caster, Altered shifting, Bloodline development, Quick study, Potent magic, Familiar
SQ: pounce, rake, greater magic fang (permanency)
Gear: Amulet of mighty fists, protective stuff, robes of arcane heritage,
Combat:
Round 1: Cast a quickened shield, then cast beast shape II (Dire tiger), moving into position...
Round 2: Cast Transformation. Quicken another spell (Bull's strength), moving into position...
Round 3: Pounce! Str=34 [18 + 6(beast shape II) + 6(bull's strength) + 4(Bloodline)] 2 claws +31 (2d6+28 plus grab), bite +31 (2d6+34 plus grab), Grapple=32 Bab +14, Str +12, Size +4, Imp. Grapple +2
Round 4: Rake! 2 claws (2d6+28)
I'm sure it can be optimized better, but this is a good baseline. Again, 13th level is a long build.
Swap the order of round 2 and it works.
Like I said a the beginning I wanted to see what I could do within the system. I'll look into making a non mythic character. I didn't realize that transformation stacked with polymorph spells. That'll be a decent place to start (especially since you get it for free from the bloodline.)
Since transformation gives you martial weapons you could also pick up a greatsword and get the same attack bonuses as a figher. You could also couple that with the size bonuses you get from the 15th level Orc power.
At 20th
Half-elf Arcanist (Brown-fur transmuter) 19/Sorcerer 1 (Orc)
Form of the Dragon III (FotD)
Str 44 18 +6 for spell, +6 bloodline, +2 level, +12 FotD
Dex 24 14 +10 FotD
Con 20 14 +6 transformation
Int 19 +3 for level
Wis 9
Cha 7
Bab: 20
hp= 210
Traits: Magical Knack, Lorekeeper
Feats: Mage's tattoo, Improved unarmed strike, Improved grapple, Improved natural attack (claws), Power attack, Furious focus
Exploits: Shift caster, Altered shifting, Bloodline development, Quick study, Potent magic, Familiar, more exploits...
SQ: pounce, rake, greater magic fang (permanency)
Gear: Amulet of mighty fists, protective stuff, robes of arcane heritage,
Combat:
Round 1: Cast Form of the Dragon III, quicken a shield, moving into position...
Round 2: Quicken another spell (Bull's strength), cast Transformation, moving into position...
Round 3: Charge! Str=44 [20 + 12(Form of the Dragon III) + 6(bull's strength) + 6(Bloodline)] bite +50 (2d8+40)
Round 4: full attack: bite +48 (2d8+40), 2 claws +43 (2d8+32), 2 wings +43 (2d8+32), tail +42 (2d8+32) DPR ~254
I'm not entirely sure about Quickened spell-like ability, but if it's legit:
full attack: bite +58 (2d8+50), 2 claws +53 (2d8+42), 2 wings +53 (2d8+42), tail +53 (2d8+42) DPR ~304
Yeah, I love that spell. The bit about SLA and activation items is a bummer. Better make sure you're ready to smash stuff before you hit the big red button.
Also, I don't believe vital strike multiplies any bonuses, only the dice.
Mythic vital strike multiplied the bonuses. That's what I was using.
Aronbar wrote: Combat:
Round 1: Cast Form of the Dragon III, quicken a shield, moving into position...
Round 2: Quicken another spell (Bull's strength), cast Transformation, moving into position...
Round 3: Charge! Str=44 [20 + 12(Form of the Dragon III) + 6(bull's strength) + 6(Bloodline)] bite +50 (2d8+40)
Round 4: full attack: bite +48 (2d8+40), 2 claws +43 (2d8+32), 2 wings +43 (2d8+32), tail +42 (2d8+32) DPR ~254
Combat:
Round 1: Cast Form of the Dragon III, quicken a shield, moving into position...
Round 2: Quicken another spell (Bull's strength), cast Transformation, moving into position...
Round 3: All enemies have been eliminated. Combat over. DPR = 0
Cass_Ponderovian wrote: Then I'd dip a level of wizard and a level of sorcerer. Both exploits say that if you gain an actual bloodline or school from another source it lets you count your arcanist levels for progression of "powers and abilities." Depending on GM ruling you could replace the sorcerer by bloodrager, for several benefits (bloodrage, proficiences, speed, hitpoints, BAB etc.). While the section about Bloodline Development mostly assumes a sorcerer, the last subsection doesn't:
Advanced Class Guide (page 10) wrote: If the arcanist already has a bloodline (or gains one later), taking this exploit instead allows her arcanist levels to stack with the levels of the class that granted her access to the bloodline when determining the powers and abilities of her bloodline. I'd talk with the GM first to be sure.
Beside this, you could go for Improved Eldritch Heritage later on, assuming you start with solid Cha and get some headband of mental superiority instead of headband of vast intelligence.
Is there any way to be an older character for better mental stats, but have an ageless body that doesn't gain penalties to physical stats?
Also, does a bloodrager dip help at all instead of sorcerer or something?
Greater age resistance is a 7th level arcanist spell. Lasts 24 hours.
Reincarnate does not remove bonuses to mental stats from Aging.
avoron wrote:
Round 1: Cast Form of the Dragon III, quicken a shield, moving into position...
Round 2: Quicken another spell (Bull's strength), cast Transformation, moving into position...
Round 3: All enemies have been eliminated. Combat over. DPR = 0
Sounds like easy mode. In my gaming experience, combats last from 7-15 rounds. They can take an entire session.
Aronbar wrote: avoron wrote:
Round 1: Cast Form of the Dragon III, quicken a shield, moving into position...
Round 2: Quicken another spell (Bull's strength), cast Transformation, moving into position...
Round 3: All enemies have been eliminated. Combat over. DPR = 0
Sounds like easy mode. In my gaming experience, combats last from 7-15 rounds. They can take an entire session. At 20th level? In my experience, things get even more rocket-taggy the higher level you reach, and even the most powerful enemies aren't going to last more than three rounds of full-attacking from martials or save-or-die spells from casters.
Obviously, if your party is less optimized fights can go at a slower pace, but I can't think of a single combat I've been in where spending the first two rounds doing nothing but moving and self-buffing would have been a good idea. That's why buffs with long durations or quick activation are so important: even if you do have a long combat, there's probably something much more meaningful you could have done in the first two rounds than boosting your own stats.
At 20th level? In my experience, things get even more rocket-taggy the higher level you reach, and even the most powerful enemies aren't going to last more than three rounds of full-attacking from martials or save-or-die spells from casters.
Obviously, if your party is less optimized fights can go at a slower pace, but I can't think of a single combat I've been in where spending the first two rounds doing nothing but moving and self-buffing would have been a good idea. That's why buffs with long durations or quick activation are so important: even if you do have a long combat, there's probably something much more meaningful you could have done in the first two rounds than boosting your own stats. Well, considering this thread was created on the basis of this build, you're "critique" about how to do meaningful things in combat seems out of place.
You need to gain access to the timestop spell. That way you have more rounds to buff in a fight and will be ready sooner.
Aronbar wrote: Well, considering this thread was created on the basis of this build, you're "critique" about how to do meaningful things in combat seems out of place. No, it just means you can make a rudimentary effort to conserve on your action economy. With shapechange and a ring of continuation, you can have your polymorphs up all day, changing them whenever you feel like it. Contingency can give you transformation as a free action when you need it the most. A belt of giant strength can easily take the place of your quickened bull's strength, and a mithral buckler can easily take the place of your quickened shield.
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