My DM runes Natural attacks as normal weapons (So using bite/claw/ect attacks is no different than using a longsword. I really want to make a wildshape based Druid. Anyone help with with a decent build with the Natural attacks rule in mind?
You mean they get iteratives, instead of every weapon once at full BAB? In that case you should be focusing on beasts that get a single extreme attack, like the arsinoitherium.
And if you're going there anyway, may as well pick up Vital Strike for those times when you can't full attack.
Or the Behemoth Hippopotamus
So my DM's ruling is having natural attacks do not give you extra attacks. You attacks are always based off your BAB. So if you have +6/+1 You get 2 attacks even if you have natural attacks. So in his game having a claw or bite attack is no different than having a longsword, they are just considered normal weapons.
So my DM's ruling is having natural attacks do not give you extra attacks. You attacks are always based off your BAB. So if you have +6/+1 You get 2 attacks even if you have natural attacks. So in his game having a claw or bite attack is no different than having a longsword, they are just considered normal weapons.
Question then- how do the rules for x1.5 str/power attack work here?
Normally, when a creature only has a single natural attack, it gets x1.5 on those bonuses. That, along with the fake iterative found on single natural attack animal companions through the multiattack ability, make wolves competitive with the cats in terms of general damage.
If they get iteratives, but not the x1.5 bonus, then this is a pure downgrade for most animal companions. Wolves would likely be more threatening than tigers.
I am not going to say the general idea is bad (it gets rid of those silly bite/claw/claw/kick/kick builds, and instantly removes the arguments revolving around the vestigial arm discovery for alchemists), but I worry about surrounding rules and balance issues that get affected when you do this.
He's ruled it does not get the 1.5str
He's ruled it does not get the 1.5str
What, even the regular x1.5 users like wolves? Then there is little to no reason to go with natural attacks at all, since they are objectively worse than weapon attacks. You neither get number or even comparable damage.
If you go with druid, you want something that can wield weapons- animal forms are pure utility. Maybe...MAYBE tigers on a charge, since they get rake attacks that are separate from regular natural attacks.
Goliath druid lets you turn into giants, and scales you weapon and armor up with you. Normal druids can do something similar with elementals (with earth elementals ahving the best 'fighty' stats), but you need to buy large/huge sized weapons for your form to put on afterwards.
...just being honest here- this change to the system completely nerfs normal druid tactics to near uselessness. In fact, they are the worst natural attackers, since they can't support the TWF style needed to make this useful (assuming you can use this stuff like unarmed strikes). Rangers are much better, since they can get dex free TWF feats. Play a tiefling ranger or something if you want natural attacks.
PS- Oh, and natural attacks are also mechanically worse than unarmed strikes in this system. Because this makes the attacks into unarmed strikes (assuming, again, that you can TWF here- if you can't then they are complete garbage), since unarmed strikes get a ton of styles that can massively buff them up (including one with cluster shot and pounce, basically).
Fair enough, I'll look into Goliath Druid and see if I can do anything fun with it. Thank you.
You could possibly go with a beastie build... if you dip monk, and use unarmed strikes instead of natural attacks.
The druid/monk build has various advantages. Wis to AC on a class that often has trouble with armor, your size can up the unarmed strikes to a nice level, etc. As I said- unarmed strikes generally have better support, and getting to do flurry of blows with no extra investment is one of them.
Doing a kung fu tiger seems to be the default for that build- cause pounce.
This Druid will hate life. Wild Shape is a wash the way the GM is running it, as are Animal Companions. This is a game where Caster's will own, but then it sounds as if the GM might say all spells do D4s only. Would also wonder if all melee classes get D8s for HP...sounds restrictive at best. He seriously has no love for the Druids.
This Druid will hate life. Wild Shape is a wash the way the GM is running it, as are Animal Companions. This is a game where Caster's will own, but then it sounds as if the GM might say all spells do D4s only. Would also wonder if all melee classes get D8s for HP...sounds restrictive at best. He seriously has no love for the Druids.
But look at it the other way. Many, many enemy creatures rely on natural attacks. While you can just pick another class, the monster can't.
A Behemoth Hippopotamus Vital Strike build is still viable
You could try running a TWF build, though druids can be a bit feat starved. A finesse build could be viable, especially if you take a 3 level dip into Unchained Rogue. Bonus Weapon Finesse, bonus combat feat through the Weapon Trick talent, and +Dex to damage with claw attacks, with Evasion and 2d6 Sneak Attack to boot. Take an animal companion and you have your own flanking buddy. Could be a good cat themed thing, though it'll take a while to come online. Better if you run a race that has natural claws, so you can still be useful in the earlier levels (depending on what level you start). Catfolk would be particularly good here, as you'd be able to take a feat and gain Pounce even when not wildshaped.
Otherwise, the only other viable way to go is to get a single high-damage attack, max Strength, and run with stuff like Vital Strike.
If you have two claws, and claws are being treated as regular weapons, then they're essentially the same thing as dual wielding daggers or short swords. So two claw attacks and TWF would give you two attacks, with the penalties for two light weapons. This would eventually scale up into the higher BAB iteratives, which means that someone relying on TWF and claw attacks could conceivably get more attacks per round than someone using claws under normal natural attack rules, just with more penalties and a feat investment.
Of course, the main benefit of stuff like Wild Shape is to stack multiple natural attacks and, say, get off 5 attacks on a pounce. But if the GM insists on running weird rules for natural attacks, then essentially just build as though it was being built for weapons.