As a DFM, I end up trying a lot of different things to engage my players in different ways. Some of the time, this means throwing enemies with different tactics at the enemies. Sometimes it means throwing different kinds of enemies. Sometimes it means putting them in a situation where combat is not the optimal solution and they must instead show their craftiness.
There are a ton of rules and subsystems, but I barely know any of them. For the upcoming part of the adventure my players are going to be expected to do some sea-travelling and thus will have need of a ship and/or captain. Since none of their characters are specialized for this, they pretty much have to find someone else who could help them control and crew a ship (there is an Aegis in the party that could probably get away with it if he used the right shards).
Now, because of this, I am considering just throwing a friendly NPC hireling/comrade with max ranks in Profession(sailor) but I haven't really learned the ins and outs of vehicle combat or the ins and outs of sailing a ship, within the context of the game. I figure I can hand waive it, but I don't know if doing so would end up making my players miss out of memorable experience. In my head I have raid like attacks planned where they basically have to strategize protecting their captain and important parts of the ship into their tactics, as a means of changing up the combat.
This isn't the only time I've done something like this, for example I often don't even bother role playing the acquisition of certain magic items (big six, lame stuff) nor do I bother with forcing them to bargain. I basically just go with "Does someone have Appraise maxed? Okay fine, you get 1/2 price of what's listed in the book." In that sense I'm not necessarily hand-waiving it, but I am skipping what could be a major part of the game.
Do DMs out there have similar lapses in their gaming sessions?
Dot?
When it comes to naval combat, I keep it pretty simple (as I haven't had need for more "strategic" scenarios involving water vessels) -- set piece battlefield, Acrobatics checks to avoid going prone/sliding into the drink, fighting as usual. You could certainly find it rewarding to involve a series of vessels to make a "blockade run" against -- relative velocity of each, objectives of captains/crews, decision trees, etc.
The specific mechanics are there to help, but you don't have to have them to tell the story . . . .
Now, regarding the max Appraise . . . . Um. Huh????? Half price??!! When can I run a PC in *your* game??
The half price thing is likely for selling, not buying.
Having played Skull and Shackles I can tell you that the combat rules for ship to ship combat are....not really important. Basically ships have huge hit point pools and you wont sink them. Or rather, its much smarter and easier to simply ram the boat with your boat and board them. That's basically what happened in every battle that wasn't a fleet battle (but that's not what you're describing).
So really, all your players need is to find a ship they can hire to work for them with a competent captain/helmsman. Look through the rules for how to run combat on a ship in Skull and Shackles and go from there. But it all basically comes down to which pilot of the two ships has a higher profession sailor/tricked out boat (because ship modifications can increase your bonus).
If the ship is just a mechanism to get them from one place to another, there really isn't any need to worry about ship combat at all. Most ships get from point A to B without issue, or there would be quite a bit less sea travel.
If you want some action on the ship, but not to worry about the mechanics of sea combat, it would certainly be possible to have Pirates attack and board the ship. Before the boarding happened, the Captain would likely just tell the PCs to get out of the way, since they don't have any naval experience and you can just relay what happens naratively. After, with pirates swarming on board, you can have the combat proceed as any other combat.
If though the ship is going to be a major focus of the plot going forward, and attacking enemy ships etc is going to be a major thing, I suggest you actually go through the rules and learn them. You might want to give your PCs some bonus skill points for profession: sailor since they haven't been built for this (or at least allow some free retraining of skill points.) If your campaign is going to have a lot of naval combat, I highly recommend the Fire As She Bears 3rd Party supplement instead of the Pathfinder naval combat rules.
Having briefly skimmed the section on vehicle combat I can say I'm glad I read it.
It pretty much facilitates everything I need as far as controlling the ship around obstacles/other ships/sea monsters as well as including stats for sails and how/why to protect them.
It's also shorter than I expected, which was nice, only a few pages long.
RE: Appraise- to clarify, 1/2 price is for selling items, rather than getting 1/4 or not even being able to sell items that they find because no one in the group could determine if it has value.
EDIT: I was also delighted to see that Profession (sailor) is not required, and can be replaced with a simple WIS check or a Knowledge (nature) check.
My main concern is not bogging down the game with too many NPCs to crew a ship, so I'll probably include an NPC who can captain a ship and try to include a way for one of the three arcane casters in the group to get Unseen Crew going.
Thanks for the help everyone!!!!
Also I have no idea how I got the typo in the first line that refers to myself as a DFM, but I'm keeping it.
Having played Skull and Shackles I can tell you that the combat rules for ship to ship combat are....not really important. Basically ships have huge hit point pools and you wont sink them. Or rather, its much smarter and easier to simply ram the boat with your boat and board them. That's basically what happened in every battle that wasn't a fleet battle (but that's not what you're describing).
So really, all your players need is to find a ship they can hire to work for them with a competent captain/helmsman. Look through the rules for how to run combat on a ship in Skull and Shackles and go from there. But it all basically comes down to which pilot of the two ships has a higher profession sailor/tricked out boat (because ship modifications can increase your bonus).
Having played through the beginning of S&S, it's double-smarter because our group has gotten a large percentage of our wealth so far from selling captured ships. We tend to avoid any ship damage to the enemy ship to avoid lowering the resale value.
Having played through the beginning of S&S, it's double-smarter because our group has gotten a large percentage of our wealth so far from selling captured ships. We tend to avoid any ship damage to the enemy ship to avoid lowering the resale value.Having played Skull and Shackles I can tell you that the combat rules for ship to ship combat are....not really important. Basically ships have huge hit point pools and you wont sink them. Or rather, its much smarter and easier to simply ram the boat with your boat and board them. That's basically what happened in every battle that wasn't a fleet battle (but that's not what you're describing).
So really, all your players need is to find a ship they can hire to work for them with a competent captain/helmsman. Look through the rules for how to run combat on a ship in Skull and Shackles and go from there. But it all basically comes down to which pilot of the two ships has a higher profession sailor/tricked out boat (because ship modifications can increase your bonus).
The same happened to us, but we actually agreed to only use it to retrofit other ships or purchase non-character improving items because it quickly destroyed any semblance of WBL in the adventure path if you allowed the characters to use it for items that improved their character.
The same happened to us, but we actually agreed to only use it to retrofit other ships or purchase non-character improving items because it quickly destroyed any semblance of WBL in the adventure path if you allowed the characters to use it for items that improved their character.Having played through the beginning of S&S, it's double-smarter because our group has gotten a large percentage of our wealth so far from selling captured ships. We tend to avoid any ship damage to the enemy ship to avoid lowering the resale value.Having played Skull and Shackles I can tell you that the combat rules for ship to ship combat are....not really important. Basically ships have huge hit point pools and you wont sink them. Or rather, its much smarter and easier to simply ram the boat with your boat and board them. That's basically what happened in every battle that wasn't a fleet battle (but that's not what you're describing).
So really, all your players need is to find a ship they can hire to work for them with a competent captain/helmsman. Look through the rules for how to run combat on a ship in Skull and Shackles and go from there. But it all basically comes down to which pilot of the two ships has a higher profession sailor/tricked out boat (because ship modifications can increase your bonus).
Yeah, us too; we mostly sold keelboats because they're too slow and kept sailing ships and above, using keelboat sales mostly to upgrade the sailing ships. We also give cuts to each sailor and bigger cuts to the officers on all our ships, which helps keep wealth in line.[/derail]
I'll have to read through S&S, but my players may actually have enough gp to actually buy their own boat.
As far as general advice goes, I planned on having a character act as their captain (undine vigilante/pirate hunter, whose social identity is the owner of the shipyard/head merchant) whose main role is to control the ship. I thought this was the best approach so the players didn't have to dedicate one team member to doing it, making them feel like they're missing out on combat or something.
If you were playing is that the kind of dynamic you would look for? I am unfamiliar with ship combat thus far and I'm really excited for it.
I'm GMing Skulls and Shackles. My advice:
Ships should be a setting for personal combat. Don't worry about the ships fighting each other. Unless you have a stupidly large quantity of siege weapons, ships are almost impossible to sink so skip past that and go straight to the boarding party / giant octopus attack / whatever.
As a DFM, I end up trying a lot of different things to engage my players in different ways. Some of the time, this means throwing enemies with different tactics at the enemies. Sometimes it means throwing different kinds of enemies. Sometimes it means putting them in a situation where combat is not the optimal solution and they must instead show their craftiness.
There are a ton of rules and subsystems, but I barely know any of them. For the upcoming part of the adventure my players are going to be expected to do some sea-travelling and thus will have need of a ship and/or captain. Since none of their characters are specialized for this, they pretty much have to find someone else who could help them control and crew a ship (there is an Aegis in the party that could probably get away with it if he used the right shards).
Now, because of this, I am considering just throwing a friendly NPC hireling/comrade with max ranks in Profession(sailor) but I haven't really learned the ins and outs of vehicle combat or the ins and outs of sailing a ship, within the context of the game. I figure I can hand waive it, but I don't know if doing so would end up making my players miss out of memorable experience. In my head I have raid like attacks planned where they basically have to strategize protecting their captain and important parts of the ship into their tactics, as a means of changing up the combat.
This isn't the only time I've done something like this, for example I often don't even bother role playing the acquisition of certain magic items (big six, lame stuff) nor do I bother with forcing them to bargain. I basically just go with "Does someone have Appraise maxed? Okay fine, you get 1/2 price of what's listed in the book." In that sense I'm not necessarily hand-waiving it, but I am skipping what could be a major part of the game.
Do DMs out there have similar lapses in their gaming sessions?
I try to keep everything in the moment, but depending on what's going on, and based on how high the APL gets, more and more things tend to get hand waived. For instance, rationing food in the wilderness is rarely a factor. I usually do the same as you for selling stuff, and if there's just too much treasure to keep track of, I'll usually just tell the players what each magic item is/does.
In your case, don't worry too much about what it takes for a captain to pilot his ship, unless you're being attacked by a sea creature with the Capsize ability. One thing you may want to read up on, though, is using things like cannons, which can really shake things up if your players aren't used to dealing with them.
I try to keep everything in the moment, but depending on what's going on, and...As a DFM, I end up trying a lot of different things to engage my players in different ways. Some of the time, this means throwing enemies with different tactics at the enemies. Sometimes it means throwing different kinds of enemies. Sometimes it means putting them in a situation where combat is not the optimal solution and they must instead show their craftiness.
There are a ton of rules and subsystems, but I barely know any of them. For the upcoming part of the adventure my players are going to be expected to do some sea-travelling and thus will have need of a ship and/or captain. Since none of their characters are specialized for this, they pretty much have to find someone else who could help them control and crew a ship (there is an Aegis in the party that could probably get away with it if he used the right shards).
Now, because of this, I am considering just throwing a friendly NPC hireling/comrade with max ranks in Profession(sailor) but I haven't really learned the ins and outs of vehicle combat or the ins and outs of sailing a ship, within the context of the game. I figure I can hand waive it, but I don't know if doing so would end up making my players miss out of memorable experience. In my head I have raid like attacks planned where they basically have to strategize protecting their captain and important parts of the ship into their tactics, as a means of changing up the combat.
This isn't the only time I've done something like this, for example I often don't even bother role playing the acquisition of certain magic items (big six, lame stuff) nor do I bother with forcing them to bargain. I basically just go with "Does someone have Appraise maxed? Okay fine, you get 1/2 price of what's listed in the book." In that sense I'm not necessarily hand-waiving it, but I am skipping what could be a major part of the game.
Do DMs out there have similar lapses in their gaming sessions?
Problem is, the BBEG for this campaign is exactly that, a big ole Brine Dragon.
I also intend for some random encounters via the table which has some big monsters with capsize.
That and while traversing an archipelago one may need maneuverability. Again, I'm not exactly hand-waiving it, I'm just not forcing us to play though it.
The difference:
Hand Waiving- no one needs to invest in Profession (sailor), Appraise, Diplomacy, or other skills as I will just progress the story anyway.
Lazy DM'ing- requiring investment in the skills normally needed to accomplish such tasks, but not bothering to roll the dice for their uses as the math of the game doesn't allow for failure anyway.
I'm not a fan of hand-waiving, especially in the case where a new player (or new character) would be built not knowing what house rules are in place to do that, meaning someone could be upset that they built a character to follow the rules, only to find out that they don't need to. That's probably my biggest fear when it comes to this.
|
I'm GMing Skulls and Shackles. My advice:
Ships should be a setting for personal combat. Don't worry about the ships fighting each other. Unless you have a stupidly large quantity of siege weapons, ships are almost impossible to sink so skip past that and go straight to the boarding party / giant octopus attack / whatever.
Also GMing Skull and Shackles. I totally agree with this.
If the target is something other than an ordinary merchant ship, you could include the opposed sailing checks for running away if you wanted to.
The idea that their quarry could escape might make it a little more dramatic.
However, there are tons of magical and mundane tricks that can be used to stop a ship at range. Simply casting a Fireball at the sails will do enough to slow the target down so that it can be boarded.
So, the Folding Boat seems obscenely under-priced......
Has it been an issue for players of S&S? I would hate to have to DM banhammer it, but at the same time it's oddly affordable compared to a real ship of comparable size, in fact it's less expensive and more versatile....
Problem is, the BBEG for this campaign is exactly that, a big ole Brine Dragon.
I also intend for some random encounters via the table which has some big monsters with capsize.
That and while traversing an archipelago one may need maneuverability. Again, I'm not exactly hand-waiving it, I'm just not forcing us to play though it.
The difference:
Hand Waiving- no one needs to invest in Profession (sailor), Appraise, Diplomacy, or other skills as I will just progress the story anyway.Lazy DM'ing- requiring investment in the skills normally needed to accomplish such tasks, but not bothering to roll the dice for their uses as the math of the game doesn't allow for failure anyway.
I'm not a fan of hand-waiving, especially in the case where a new player (or new character) would be built not knowing what house rules are in place to do that, meaning someone could be upset that they built a character to follow the rules, only to find out that they don't need to. That's probably my biggest fear when it comes to this.
I see. I have a couple pages-worth of House Rules myself, and I've taken it upon myself to keep them in a word document. Any time a new player is invited to the table, I make sure he gets the chance to read that document before making his character. Doing this also helps myself and veteran players keep track of the House Rules, and having them on paper makes them easier to enforce (or tweak) if something arises that challenge the balance.
As for the Brine Dragon, if you don't want to read through all the bells and whistles on Capsize, you can always just roll Dragon's CMB vs. Captain's Profession check each round, and make everyone roll Ref DC [(CMB-Profession)+10], or they fall prone. No need to look up additional rules if it's just going to be one combat, and you're playing both the NPC and Monster behind the mechanics.
|
|
So, the Folding Boat seems obscenely under-priced......
Has it been an issue for players of S&S? I would hate to have to DM banhammer it, but at the same time it's oddly affordable compared to a real ship of comparable size, in fact it's less expensive and more versatile....
It is quite expensive for what it does.
Given how easy it is to find a ship's boat or similar vessel, most PCs would probably avoid it.Such an item would make an interesting addition to a treasure hoard though.
In my campaign, they haven't found a reason to use it since then.
So, the Folding Boat seems obscenely under-priced......
Has it been an issue for players of S&S? I would hate to have to DM banhammer it, but at the same time it's oddly affordable compared to a real ship of comparable size, in fact it's less expensive and more versatile....
It is quite expensive for what it does.
Given how easy it is to find a ship's boat or similar vessel, most PCs would probably avoid it.
Such an item would make an interesting addition to a treasure hoard though.
** spoiler omitted **
That's a cool item, it takes up a slot though and it has a set duration.
I guess the size of the boat really is less useful than I thought.