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Hi. I'm working on a maneuver build and would love any helpful opinions and advice from the community. This is for PFS so I've only built out to level 13.
Str 15 (+2) Dex 14 Con 12 Int 14 Wis 14 Cha 7
all level stat bonuses to Str so 18 at 4, 19 at 8, and 20 at 12
alt Human trait - Heart of the Wild to make up for low Con
starting Traits: Bred for War (Human), Bruising Intellect (Social)
Feats and relevant Class Features.
1 - Fighter 1: Power Attack (Fighter), Combat Reflexes (Human), Enforcer
2 - Monk 1: Improved Trip (Monk)
3 - Witch 1: Vicious Stomp - I'm taking Witch here to use Mage Armor wands and access to spells such as Enlarge Person, Ill Omen, and Long Arm
4 - Monk 2: Improved Dirty Trick (Monk)
5 - Fighter 2: weapon focus (unarmed strike) (Fighter), Combat Expertise (Fighter), Fury's Fall
6 - Fighter 3: Maneuver Mastery +2 (Fighter)
7 - Witch 2: Constrict (Witch), Additional Traits (magical knack - witch, reactionary)
8 - Fighter 4: Greater Trip (Fighter)
9 - Fighter 5: Weapon Training (monk +1), Martial Versatility (weapon focus)
10 - Fighter 6: Weapon Specialization (unarmed strike) (Fighter)
11 - Fighter 7: Maneuver Mastery +4 (Fighter), Martial Versatility (weapon specialization)
12 - Fighter 8: Greater Dirty Trick (Fighter)
13 - Fighter 9: Dirty Trick Master
Attack Sequences:
AoO: activate Power Attack non-lethal Vicious Stomp +6 (BAB 3, Str 4, WF 1, Power Attack -2) vs. Prone AC for 1d6+8 (Str 4, PA 4) *shaken from Enforcer
Flurry: Unarmed Dirty Trick to kick dirt in eye +10 (BAB 4, Str 4, WF 1, Improved Dirty Fighting 2, Flurry -2, DRIS 2, Trait 1, PA -2)
Attack 2: Hair +0 (BAB 3, Natural Attack -5, Str 4, PA -2) for 1d4+6 (Int 2, PA 4)
Free: Grab -1 (BAB 4, Natural Attack -5 [this is debatable whether the penalty applies but I'll include just to be safe], Int 2, Flurry -2, DRIS 2, Trait 1, PA -2) *grappled
AoO: activate PA Greater Trip Sansetsukon +15 (BAB 7, Str 5, WF 1, PA -2, MW 1, WT 3) for 1d10+17 (Str 7, PA 6, MW 1, WT 3)
AoO: non-lethal Vicious Stomp +14 (BAB 7, Str 5, WF 1, PA -2, WT 3) 1d6+12 (Str 5, PA 4, WT 3) *shaken
Flurry: Sansetsukon Dirty Trick to sweep dirt in eye +21 (BAB 8, Str 5, WF 1, Impr Dirty Fighting 2, Flurry -2, DRIS 2, Trait 1, PA -2, LW 2, MW 1, WT 3) *blinded
Attack 2: Hair +6 (BAB 7, Natural Attack -5, Str 5, PA -2, WF 1) for 1d4+6 (Int 2, PA 4)
Free: Grab +7 (BAB 8, Natural Attack -5, Int 2, Flurry -2, DRIS 2, Trait 1, PA -2, LW 2, WF 1) for Constrict 1d4+6 *grappled
Attack 3: Sansetsukon +10 (BAB 7, Iterative -5, Str 5, WF 1, PA -2, MW 1, WT 3) for 1d10 +17
AoO: activate PA Greater Trip Sansetsukon +18 (BAB 9, Str 6, WF 1, PA -3, MW 2, WT 3) for 1d10+25 (Str 9, PA 9, MW 2, WT 3, Weapon Specialization 2)
AoO: non-lethal Vicious Stomp +16 (BAB 9, Str 6, WF 1, PA -3, WT 3) 1d6+17 (Str 6, PA 6, WT 3, WS 2) *shaken
Flurry: Sansetsukon Dirty Trick to sweep dirt in eye +26 (BAB 10, Str 6, WF 1, Impr Dirty Fighting 2, Flurry -2, DRIS 2, Trait 1, PA -3, LW 4, MW 2, WT 3) *blinded
Attack 2: Hair +8 (BAB 9, Natural Attack -5, Str 6, PA -3, WF 1) for 1d4+10 (Int 2, PA 6, WS 2)
Free: Grab +10 (BAB 10, Natural Attack -5, Int 2, Flurry -2, DRIS 2, Trait 1, PA -3, LW 4, WF 1) for Constrict 1d4+10 *grappled
Attack 3: Sansetsukon +13 (BAB 9, Iterative -5, Str 6, WF 1, PA -3, MW 2, WT 3) for 1d10 +17
With one full-round attack, I can make the enemy prone, shaken, blinded, and grappled. It gets even better at 13 with Greater Dirty Trick and Dirty Trick Master.
What do y'all think? Are there feats I should swap out? Any advice on the order of the classes? Does the natural attack penalty apply on the grab?
Dirty trick master is not PFS legal.
Do you have anything against changing your Stat array?
Str 15 (+2) Dex 14 Con 12 Int 14 Wis 14 Cha 7
I would prob switch the Int/Wis with Con, since you mentioned you feel your Con is too low.
*****
Now, while your dip in Monk grants you two Improved Maneuver feats, there is one thing you have forgotten.
At 1st level, as part of a full-attack action, a maneuver master can make one additional combat maneuver, regardless of whether the maneuver normally replaces a melee attack or requires a standard action. The maneuver master uses his monk level in place of his base attack bonus to determine his CMB for the bonus maneuvers, though all combat maneuver checks suffer a –2 penalty when using a flurry.
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You don't add your BAB. You add your Monk levels. This dip will become worse as you level up, leaving you with only the bonus feats. (which isn't that bad, actually)
Instead of Monk, I would advise you to take 2 levels of Brawler.
MM Monk 1: Unarmed Strike, Maneuver Feat, Flurry (which you won't use)
MM Monk 2: Maneuver Feat, Evasion
Brawler 1: Brawler's cunning, martial flexibility, martial training, Unarmed Strike.
Brawler 2: Bonus Combat Feat, Brawler's Flurry.
Benefits with the Brawler: Full BAB Progression, Higher Hit die, Can use light armor** and shields without losing class features*.
Downside: The Brawler does not have a good will save, so you'll lose the +3 from the Monk.
*While the Arcane Spell Check Failure may be bad for the witch, this can be circumvented with Wands or the Cracked Vibrant Purple Prism Ioun Stone. I believe you can even hand it to your familiar, and free up the standard action for casting spells.
**You can enchant your armor with the Brawling +1 enchantment. That's +2 to Attack, Damage (and grapple) with all your unarmed attacks.
This would allow you to decrease your Int to just 12 (if you still want that extra Witch spell), while still being able to pick up your feats.
The brawler can use this ability again before the duration expires in order to replace the previous combat feat with another choice.
If a combat feat has a daily use limitation (such as Stunning Fist), any uses of that combat feat while using this ability count toward that feat's daily limit.
/.../
A bonus Combat Feat which you can change.
Your Brawler levels will stack with your Fighter levels when you pick your Fighter-Only feats. Neat.
A brawler applies her full Strength modifier to her damage rolls for all attacks made with brawler's flurry, whether the attacks are made with an off-hand weapon or a weapon wielded in both hands. A brawler can substitute disarm, sunder, and trip combat maneuvers for unarmed attacks as part of brawler's flurry. A brawler with natural weapons can't use such weapons as part of brawler's flurry, nor can she make natural weapon attacks in addition to her brawler's flurry attacks.
/.../
So, yeah. Scaling TWF without the downsides of TWF.
*****
And you do qualify for the feat Final Embrace with your second level of witch, which grants you the Grab and Constrict abilities. Might be something to have in mind while you use the Martial Flexibility class feature.
You don't add your BAB. You add your Monk levels. This dip will become worse as you level up, leaving you with only the bonus feats. (which isn't that bad, actually)
Can't tell if trolling.jpg
You add your Monk levels in place of your Monk BAB.
You don't add your BAB. You add your Monk levels. This dip will become worse as you level up, leaving you with only the bonus feats. (which isn't that bad, actually)
Can't tell if trolling.jpg
You add your Monk levels in place of your Monk BAB.
Didn't troll.jpg
Well, that makes MM dip a whole lot more viable!
There was a faq about the monk levels. You count your monk levels as your BAB when flurrying and then add your BAB from other classes. So hes only down BAB from full because of the witch levels.
I should have edited when I had the chance!
Anyway. The Final Embrace feat is still neat to have. You'll gain free grapple checks with your unarmed attacks (you don't provoke), free constricts to both unarmed attacks and the hair (instead of swift), and +4 to grapple checks.
And what's your Familiar?
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Wonderstell, great suggestion for Brawler. I lose out on a feat (Brawler 2 only gets 1 bonus feat whereas MM 2 had 2) but martial flexibility kinda makes up for it.
The main problem with not going MM is I don't get to use dirty tricks as part of a full-attack. Normally, dirty trick requires a standard action and is not a maneuver that can replace an attack action. If I don't go MM, then I kinda lose the uniqueness of this build where I can make baddies prone, shaken, blinded/sickened/dazed/etc., and grappled.
There was a faq about the monk levels. You count your monk levels as your BAB when flurrying and then add your BAB from other classes. So hes only down BAB from full because of the witch levels.
The way I interpret MM, I only get the extra BAB on maneuvers. Non-maneuver attacks as well as any standard action attack is at class level -2 BAB (which is basically like getting -2 to all attacks when flurrying so it's a wash with normal monk flurry). The upside from normal monk flurry or brawler flurry is I get 1.5x str dmg on my Sansetsukon even when I flurry maneuvers.
I should have edited when I had the chance!
Anyway. The Final Embrace feat is still neat to have. You'll gain free grapple checks with your unarmed attacks (you don't provoke), free constricts to both unarmed attacks and the hair (instead of swift), and +4 to grapple checks.
And what's your Familiar?
I looked at Final Embrace and decided it doesn't do anything for this build as the only time I grapple is with the Hair. I don't have enough feat slots (no improved grapple), especially if I consider Brawler instead of MM.
Probably the Campo for +4 Init. I don't plan on using the familiar to do anything as it's just a witch dip.
Thanks for the great ideas so far though.
I don't think I can afford to. Need at least Int 13 for greater maneuvers and Wis for AC.Do you have anything against changing your Stat array?
Str 15 (+2) Dex 14 Con 12 Int 14 Wis 14 Cha 7
I would prob switch the Int/Wis with Con, since you mentioned you feel your Con is too low.
Yeah, that only works if you're a Brawler.
I looked at Final Embrace and decided it doesn't do anything for this build as the only time I grapple is with the Hair. I don't have enough feat slots, especially if I consider Brawler instead of MM.
Probably the Campo for +4 Init. I don't plan on using the familiar to do anything as it's just a witch dip.
Thanks for the great ideas so far though.
Well, if you got access to familiar archetypes, you should probably go for the Emissary, which would give you at-will Guidance (+1 competence to whatever you choose once per round), and the ability to re-roll a failed will save once per day.
And if you feel as if you're missing feats, just multiclass!
Taking the feat Dirty Fighting will let you ignore the Int 13 requirement, as would going brawler.
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Taking the feat Dirty Fighting will let you ignore the Int 13 requirement, as would going brawler.
I love that feat! But since I'm going lore warden, I get combat expertise free. I don't think Con is that big of an issue with Heart of the Wilderness. Besides, I like the extra skillpoints from hight Int.
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Well, if you got access to familiar archetypes, you should probably go for the Emissary, which would give you at-will Guidance (+1 competence to whatever you choose once per round), and the ability to re-roll a failed will save once per day.
And if you feel as if you're missing feats, just multiclass!
Emissary archetype is a great suggestion. In the absence of doing anything else, a +1 guidance every round is awesome.
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Depending on your focus (damage vs conditions) I would suggest getting Quick Dirty Trick ASAP. I'd say 9th in your build, and push everything else back.
Why quick dirty trick? So I can substitute the greater trip AoO with a dirty trick? That's an awesome idea.
I'll delay weapon focus for all attacks by 1 level but that could be worth it. Thanks!
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That link is giving me grief. I fixed it.Try this Ninja Dirty Fighter Build
Optibuilds is terrible. I don't know how he got so high natural attacks in addition to normal unarmed strikes. If you use natural weapons after your normal attacks, they are considered secondary attacks and subject to -5 penalty.
Reading the discussion thread, the author missed a bunch of stuff as well.
I might be able to count on one hand the number of good ideas I've seen on optibuilds.
You can't multiclass fighter/brawler. Brawler is hybrid fighter/monk and you can't multiclass with the parent classes.
You might be thinking of Alternate classes. There is a restriction on parent classes, but nothing so severe.
Each one of the following classes lists two classes that it draws upon to form the basis of its theme. While a character can multiclass with these parent classes, this usually results in redundant abilities. Such abilities don't stack unless specified. If a class feature allows the character to make a one-time choice (such as a bloodline), that choice must match similar choices made by the parent classes and vice-versa (such as selecting the same bloodline). The new classes presented here are all hybrids of two existing core or base classes.
I stand correctedYou can't multiclass fighter/brawler. Brawler is hybrid fighter/monk and you can't multiclass with the parent classes.You might be thinking of Alternate classes. There is a restriction on parent classes, but nothing so severe.
Each one of the following classes lists two classes that it draws upon to form the basis of its theme. While a character can multiclass with these parent classes, this usually results in redundant abilities. Such abilities don't stack unless specified. If a class feature allows the character to make a one-time choice (such as a bloodline), that choice must match similar choices made by the parent classes and vice-versa (such as selecting the same bloodline). The new classes presented here are all hybrids of two existing core or base classes.
It changed between playtest of the ACG and release, and the playtest info stuck in some people's heads. It's a common occurrence. :)