Hulking Ninja- how to?

[Alex Mack]

I really dig the idea of dipping two levels of Ninja for the Ki-pool to get an extra attack. I was planning to slap such a dip on a two handed martial to really do some damage when full attacking and add some skill versatility. My problem is I can't really find a good chassis to make this work.

I really like it for an Anger Id Rager, but I have no idea where to go after Bloodrager 1 Ninja 2.

Charisma Synergy from Paladin would be sweet, but delaying my smite progression by 2 levels doesn't seem all that nice and there would be plenty of competition for my swift action. Then again 4 levels of hospitaler paladin would really power that ki-pool like no ones business with a Bronze Gong.

Weaponmaster Fighter might be nice as it starts delivering from level 3 onwards...

Has anyone come up with good ways to make a Ninja Dip viable for a martial? Also are there perhaps any cool PrCs that could build on this? Thanks for your input!

[Imbicatus]

Swashbuckler seems like a good fit with CHA synergy for Panache. Take Evasion as a Ninja Trick and you qualify for Twist Away, giving you two good saves.

[Alex Mack]

Imbicatus wrote:

Swashbuckler seems like a good fit with CHA synergy for Panache. Take Evasion as a Ninja Trick and you qualify for Twist Away, giving you two good saves.

Hmm hadn't considered SwashNinjaBarian yet...most panache abilities require swift actions however, so there's some conflict with Ki-Pool goin on here...also I'd have to use a one handed melee weapon, while no insurmountable challenge it would mean I have to live with a lower damage die.

[Rory]

Hulking Ninja

This ninja walks around with a green tinge on his skin from the reflection of enemy faces.

S: 18 D: 14 C: 12 I: 10 W: 8 Ch: 14 (20 pt human)

Ninja 1
Ninja 2
Oracle 1 (stone mystery)
Barbarian 1 (hurler archetype)

Traits:
Fate's Favored
Armor Expert

Feats:
Quick Draw (human)
Point Blank Shot (1st)
Precise Shot (ninja talent)
Rapid Shot (3rd)

Tactics:

1st level - just walk around beating things with a weapon in two hands dealing weapon +6 damage + bonus if sneak attacking, which isn't really needed, or throw weapons to make them come to you

2nd level - now explode in damage with that ki attack as an extra attack with that two handed weapon when they do close on you, or just take extra attacks when you can sneak attack or at ranged

3rd level - you can quick draw and throw three rocks for 2d4+6 damage each using your ki pool, buff with Divine Favor to get +2/+2 goodness

4th level - you'll have a range of +10 ft for rocks and the damage goes up to 2d4+9 each

Work towards crafting a Belt of Mighty Hurling, Lesser eventually to really hit well.

A mithral breastplate will keep your AC fairly relevant.

*************************

Belt of Mighty Hurling, Lesser
Aura moderate transmutation; CL 8th
Slot belt; Price 14,000 gp; Weight 1 lb.

DESCRIPTION
This thick leather belt is buckled with a bright bronze clasp in the shape of a fist.

When worn, it grants its wearer a +2 enhancement bonus to Strength and allows him to apply his Strength modifier as a bonus on attack rolls instead of his Dexterity modifier when making ranged attacks with thrown weapons. Also, the range increment of any weapon thrown by the wearer gains a +10-foot bonus. Treat this Strength bonus as a temporary ability bonus for the first 24 hours the belt is worn.

[Chess Pwn]

Why not finish it out with the bloodrager?

But as a side note. Going Paladin is fine. Your swifts aren't as clogged as you'd think they'd be if you're okay not spamming LoH every round. And yeah, your smite damage is delayed a little, but it's still a good match and fixes your saves.

Another option might be to go Titan Fighter and wield a large greatsword.

[Alex Mack]

Rock chucking looks like fun. Sadly I can't build a PFS build around a 14K item tha won't be available before level 8 or 9.

Yeah paladin might actually be my best bet...also there's quite a few useful archetypes.

[Rory]

Alex Mack wrote:

Rock chucking looks like fun. Sadly I can't build a PFS build around a 14K item tha won't be available before level 8 or 9.

The build does not require that 14K belt to function. I only mentioned it for a later level nicety due to its being an obscure item that not many will know about. The build itself works starting at level 1.

Remember, you are still swinging two great sword potential attacks (up to 3d6+11 each attack before any item investment) at 4th level as well. That might not have been clear from the presentation.

For PFS and neglecting that other belt...

Swap from "S: 18 D: 14" to "S: 16 D: 16" and go for a +2 STR/DEX belt. You can get that starting at 4th.

(although the S: 18 D: 14 choice is far more "hulking ninja" :-)

[Alex Mack]

Rory wrote:

Alex Mack wrote:

Rock chucking looks like fun. Sadly I can't build a PFS build around a 14K item tha won't be available before level 8 or 9.

The build does not require that 14K belt to function. I only mentioned it for a later level nicety due to its being an obscure item that not many will know about. The build itself works starting at level 1.

Remember, you are still swinging two great sword potential attacks (up to 3d6+11 each attack before any item investment) at 4th level as well. That might not have been clear from the presentation.

For PFS and neglecting that other belt...

Swap from "S: 18 D: 14" to "S: 16 D: 16" and go for a +2 STR/DEX belt. You can get that starting at 4th.

(although the S: 18 D: 14 choice is far more "hulking ninja" :-)

Your proposed build does spend all it's feats on rock chucking however and doesn't even take PA. While the damage per hit is nice the to hit on a full attack is rather atrocious.

Building a Switch hitter would be a nice plan though...maybe with two handed thrower...

So I brainstormed something else. THE STRONGEST NINJA EVA. This Build can Rock STR 30 while raging at level 5 and has 2 attacks per round with a Two handed weapon. So +12 to hit and 1d10+22 damage...

Half Orc ID Bloodrager 1/Ninja 2/Eldritch Guardian 2

STR 18 DEX 12 CON 14 INT 7 WIS 12 CHA 14
Traits: Fate's Favored/Something Else

1 ID Bloodrager (Anger) Skill Focus (Intimidate)/Power Attack/Extra Rage
2 Ninja
3 Ninja Extra Ki/ Amplified Rage
4 Fighter 1 Familiar (Hedgehog Valet Familiar)
5 Fighter 2 Share Feats Sympathetic Rage

[Chess Pwn]

If the entire idea of the class is just to get the extra attack from the ki pool you might be better served going Unchained Monk. Their flurry lets them get the extra attack always and it's only 1 level dip and you keep full BAB. You could then still go ninja for even more attacks if you still wanted. Only drawback is the AC, but since you have the bloodrager dip you can use a want of mage armor no problem.

Another option is instead of ninja is going the Iroran Paladin. This will greatly help your saving throws, get cha to AC too, still get a ki pool at lv4, and you'll have some lay on hands to help with getting hit often.

bloodrager love:

Ah bloodrager. The class that is a super great 1lv dip for anyone that likes str. and with 1 feat you have all the rage you need for a day.

Want to rage on a paladin? no alignment restrictions!
Want more str? anger Id bloodrager.
Want a better will save? bloodline Familiar hedgehog.
Want unarmed? Bloody knuckle Rowdy
Want heavy armor? Steelblood

Like this class has something for everyone. And the cool part? it's still good as a full class, unlike some other 1 dip wonder classes.

[Alex Mack]

Chess Pwn wrote:

If the entire idea of the class is just to get the extra attack from the ki pool you might be better served going Unchained Monk. Their flurry lets them get the extra attack always and it's only 1 level dip and you keep full BAB. You could then still go ninja for even more attacks if you still wanted. Only drawback is the AC, but since you have the bloodrager dip you can use a want of mage armor no problem.

Another option is instead of ninja is going the Iroran Paladin. This will greatly help your saving throws, get cha to AC too, still get a ki pool at lv4, and you'll have some lay on hands to help with getting hit often.

** spoiler omitted **

Irorian Paladin won't work. It gets a monks ki-pool but it doesn't get flurry.

I was actually planning on sticking with heavy armor and possibly shielded brace to be fairly tanky, so Unchained monk wouldn't really work. Unless I was to go with Crane Style/Sansetsukon Flurry. Hmmm...Monk also wouldn't be eating all my swift actions either that would be cool...

Yeah Bloodrager is really the best dip in da whole wide world... the only thing that bugs me is that there's so few Archetypes that can be combined...

For the build above I feel like it's running a bit low on Ki. Maybe I should dip a level of Cleric to get Channel...

[Imbicatus]

You can also have a monk with a shield thanks to the armor masters handbook to really crank up the AC.

[Alex Mack]

Hmm yeah unhindering Shield does have a BAB requirement of +6 for non fighters. Also it doesn't stack with Sansetsukon. But then again that would only come in handy if I would rely on fighting defensively.

I think if I were to go with unchained Flurry then I'd prolly only take 1 level of monk as all it's other abilities are tied to unarmed strikes.

[Alex Mack]

I've been debating the idea of Unchained Monk/Blood Conduit and I was wondering.

If I hit a foe with an unarmed strike and cast a swift action Frostbite, can my next unarmed attack also discharge a frostbite charge?

If so that would make for a world of pain...now all I need to figure out is how to acquire a decent AC for such a build...

[Rory]

Alex Mack wrote:

Your proposed build does spend all it's feats on rock chucking however and doesn't even take PA. While the damage per hit is nice the to hit on a full attack is rather atrocious.

I only exampled it to level 4. I'll quantify the numbers for posterity.

+2 BAB
+2 from 14 DEX
+1 Stone Oracle Revelation
+1 Point Blank Shot
+2 Divine Favor
-2 Rapid Shot
-----------------------------
+6 to hit at level 4

3 rock attacks of 2d4+12 damage with a +6 to hit at level 4.

+2 BAB
+6 from 22 STR
+2 Divine Favor
------------------------------
+10 to hit at level 4

2 great sword attacks of 2d6+11 damage with a +9 to hit at level 4.

(this is before spending any money at all)

You don't like the idea of a switch hitter, so, I'll leave it at that.

[Harleequin]

One of these days I will build a Bruce Lee style ninja..."Enter the Dragon!"

[Alex Mack]

Harleequin wrote:

One of these days I will build a Bruce Lee style ninja..."Enter the Dragon!"

Ninja 2/UMonk1/Urban Bloodrager with Dragon Style. Hit fast and hard!

Rory wrote:

You don't like the idea of a switch hitter, so, I'll leave it at that.

I actually like the idea of a switch hitter quite a bit. I'm just not sure if rock throwing is actually the optimal path to pull it off. And +6 to hit at level 4 when factoring in that you spent a standard action on Divine Favor is a pretty bad return on investment.

A bow deals 1d8 versus the rocks 2d4. It's better crit mod and the fact that it's easier to enhance lets it easily pull ahead fairly quickly. If I went with Savage Technologist instead of Bloodrager for Rage purposes then archery becomes much better.

Then again rocks can prolly be used with two handed thrower...but so can thrown weapons.

[Rory]

Alex Mack wrote:

I'm just not sure if rock throwing is actually the optimal path to pull it off.

You can't beat bow for optimal ranged damage (eventually, although the rock thrower beats the archer at really low levels). The game is so slanted towards bows for ranged damage that it is crazy to try to beat them.

The rock throwing ninja simply gives a crazy cool "hulking ninja" portrayal and gets approximately close enough to bow damage... 'tis all.

I think it would be pretty hilarious to see a halfling hulking ninja whip out rocks and out damage that human hulking barbarian.

Level 4 Halfling Hulking Ninja:
3x rocks 2d3+9

Level 4 Human Hulking Barbarian:
1x great sword 2d6+15 (approx)

Fun! Fun!

[Scott Wilhelm]

I was thinking Natural Attack build. Start out as a Tengu with Claws. Take Quick, Great dirty tricks. Take a level in White Haired Witch and add a Hair Attack. Acquire a Helm of the Mammoth Lord and get a Gore Attack. Maybe take some levels in Monk or Brawler and throw in some Unarmed Strikes, too.

When you Full Attack, use one of your attacks, the Gore maybe, to do a Dirty Trick Maneuver to make your opponent Blind, then you opponent loses his dex mod to AC, and you get Sneak Attack on all the rest of your many, many attacks: Gore, Bite, Hair, Claws, for starters. There are other ways to get Natural Attacks. Take 4 levels in Druid and take the Shaping Focus Feat, allowing you to Wild Shape into a Warcat with 2 Claws, a Bite, and Rake, or maybe a Giant Octopus, with a Bite and 8 Tentacles, all with Grab and Constrict for 17 Attacks! Cast Alter Self or Monstrous Physique I and turn into a Sewer Troll or a 4 armed Sahaugin: either gives you 4 Claw Attacks, and I think a Bite.

Take Sap Adept and Bludgeoner. When you make an attack with your Blunt Natural Weapons: Bite, Hair, and Claws, you do extra Sneak Attack Damage.

Take Hamatula Strike and Wear Armor Spikes, so that every time you hit with your Piercing Natural Weapons: Gore, Bite, (and Hair, which isn't a piercing weapon, but has a sort of Grab), you get a free Grapple and also do Armor Spike Damage, and since the Grapple Check is a separate Attack, the Spikes also do Sneak Attack Damage.

Take Snake Style, and your Unarmed Strikes do Piercing Damage and can get in on the HS fun. Take Feral Combat Training, and so can your Claws. Take Snake Fang, and you have an Attack of Opportunity trigger: every time someone attacks and misses you. Acquire a Crown of Swords, and gain attack every time someone hits.

Take 2 levels in Eldritch Guardian. Acquire a Protector Familiar. Take a level in Cavalier and take Paired Opportunist. Protector Familiars get an Attack of Opportunity to Aid Another to increase your AC whenever someone attacks you, Eldritch Guardians' Familiars know all the Combat Feats their masters know, including Paired Opportunist, so when your Familiar get the Attack of Opportunity with Bodyguard, you get to make a real Attack of Opportunity. Take levels in Alchemist, and take Tumor Familiar. When you get 5 Familiar-Haver levels, you and your familiar will gain Shield Other, now offset by the Tumor Familiar's Fast Healing 5.

Take Broken Wing Gambit, grant a +2/+2 to people you hit, but if they take it, you get an Attack of Opportunity. So now, whenever someone attacks you, you (and all your allies, because of Tactician) get an Attack of Opportunity; if they take that +2, you get a 2nd AoO from Broken Wing Gambit; if the attack misses, that triggers an AoO from Snake Fang, and if it hits, it activates your Crown of Swords!