Bonus and Glitterdust as Ninja


Rules Questions


Hi folks,

need your help for two questions:

1. I found a very nice harp in our last adventure (Art, 800GP, Masterwork) so the instrument provides a circumstance bonus of +2, if i enchant the harp (or let enchant to be precise) with a competence bonus +5, the item should provide a +7 bonus to perform right?

2. My Ninja is a little bit lost at the moment, because i have no flanking buddy. I don't want to go for the feint-path because it is expensive, prone to fail and i can only get one attack through tops.
Is there a way (ANY way!) to get Glitterdust as usable option with a good DC for an existing character (For a new char i could just use an aasimar (muse-touched) for Glitterdust as spel-like ability)? 1-3 uses per day should suffice. The problem with a wands would be, that the DC is extremly low, so the spell would be effective in very rare cases.

Any ideas are appreciated.

Thank you.

Silver Crusade Contributor

1) This is technically a custom item, so talk to your GM before making plans. That said, yes, it would.

2) Not sure about ways to get glitterdust; I'll leave that to others. Do you already have vanishing trick? That's the usual ninja approach. I'm also a fan of the dirty trick combat maneuver. ^_^

What's your party makeup? If you have no flanking partner, that suggests a caster-heavy environment. Perhaps a party caster could aid you with glitterdust spells of their own - it's not like it's a waste of their turn or anything.


Kalindlara wrote:

1) This is technically a custom item, so talk to your GM before making plans. That said, yes, it would.

2) Not sure about ways to get glitterdust; I'll leave that to others. Do you already have vanishing trick? That's the usual ninja approach. I'm also a fan of the dirty trick combat maneuver. ^_^

What's your party makeup? If you have no flanking partner, that suggests a caster-heavy environment. Perhaps a party caster could aid you with glitterdust spells of their own - it's not like it's a waste of their turn or anything.

We have an Alchemist, a Paladin, which is rather "straigthforward" and not very tactical. Also we have a cleric. I already asked for flanking buddies (SM) but Glitterdust is not on the clerics spell list.

A staff would be cool, but this campaign does not allow for custom made items.


Forgot something:

I have and use vanishing trick, but the uses are limited and full attacks are not possible because the invisibility ends with the first attack.

Problem with Dirty Trick: You need to invest a feat and this is a standard action. So you lose a full round in which you can't attack, and removing the dirty trick condition requires a move action on the part of the victim. So i can't really see how this would be useful at all because the enemy has the initiative before you which means the condition is gone before you can do anything.


1. If you enchant the harp, the masterwork bonus *probably* won't stack with the existing one. Did you have a specific spell/enchantment in mind for reference?

2. Flanking is generally the only easy way to get full round attacks with sneak attack. You can try using darkness or smoke (with a way to see in it) to make them sneak attack-able. If this is a home game, you could also ask the GM about the Leadership feat to acquire a hireling for flanking purposes. Failing that, you could alternatively purchase / train a combat animal. Sure, it may not be an animal companion, but there's still a lot you can do with handle animal and tricks.

Liberty's Edge

If you are not set on Glitterdust you could use the rogue trick Fast Getaway with a Decoy Ring. This doesn't let you full attack, but does have several advantages. 1. You are often invisible from the middle of you turn until you attack at the start of your next turn. 2. You generate a ton of distracting targets. 3. There is no limit to the number of times you can do this in a day.

Summons can make great flanking buddies. When you are vanished you could UMD a summon out of a Wand. It would appear right before your actions so even a first level monster wouldn't die before your attacks. Problem is if your target moves further than a 5' step will take you.


Darkness plus darkvision. If the cleric can't cast for you, use a wand.


You want Two Weapon Feint and Improved Two Weapon Feint, assuming you are using two weapons.

It is one of the easier ways to set up consistent sneak attack.


Hi Samish,

thats a very interesting combo..thank you for that tip. That might even be in reach due to our last haul (7500 GP of loot for everyone).

@Claxon

Too feat intensive while providing to little benefit (in my opinion).

@Orfamay
We are mostly underground with enemies who have darkvsion..so not really useful

Sovereign Court

I'd mostly just hassle the paladin & cleric (if a melee cleric) to take 5ft steps on their turns to get you decent flanking.


Brakiri wrote:

@Claxon

Too feat intensive while providing to little benefit (in my opinion).

Really?

You were already going to take Two Weapon Fighting and Improved Two Weapon Fighting weren't you?

So you need to pick up Combat Expertise, Two Weapon Feint, and Improved Two Weapon Feint.

What else are you spending you feats on that you can't spare it to make Sneak Attack actually work?

It's about the only way you can guarantee yourself consistent Sneak Attacks without flanking and without spending limited resources.

Liberty's Edge

Claxon wrote:
Brakiri wrote:

@Claxon

Too feat intensive while providing to little benefit (in my opinion).

Really?

You were already going to take Two Weapon Fighting and Improved Two Weapon Fighting weren't you?

So you need to pick up Combat Expertise, Two Weapon Feint, and Improved Two Weapon Feint.

What else are you spending you feats on that you can't spare it to make Sneak Attack actually work?

It's about the only way you can guarantee yourself consistent Sneak Attacks without flanking and without spending limited resources.

Can't you also go for Circling Mongoose and Canny Tumble? Lets you make 5-foot steps and attack after each one, with each one making the enemy be considered flat footed :) More feat intensive, definitely - Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Canny Tumble, and Circling Mongoose are required, but it's pretty cool, and as far as I can tell works a little more consistently than Feinting? :)


Claxon wrote:
Brakiri wrote:

@Claxon

Too feat intensive while providing to little benefit (in my opinion).

Really?

You were already going to take Two Weapon Fighting and Improved Two Weapon Fighting weren't you?

So you need to pick up Combat Expertise, Two Weapon Feint, and Improved Two Weapon Feint.

What else are you spending you feats on that you can't spare it to make Sneak Attack actually work?

It's about the only way you can guarantee yourself consistent Sneak Attacks without flanking and without spending limited resources.

Because hitting anything is a big issue (-2 for both attacks), Weapon Focus for example. Dodge for AC and Extra Ki for my Vanishing Trick. I know limited resources but the extra to-hit bonus due to invisibility is a huge plus for a rogue with 3/4 BAB progression.

Combat Expertise may be interesting but due to high Acrobatics i can fight defensively or total defense if i really need the AC.

These are 3 feats i rather spent for something else.


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Sure, you might rather spend them on something else. But your complaining that you can't get sneak attack and asking how to fix it.

I'm telling you how to get sneak attack, and there really aren't any other good ways for you to do it until level 10 when you get access to Invisible Blade.

If you're going to ignore flanking and don't want use your Vanishing Trick too much you don't really have much option besides Improved Two Weapon Feint or Circling Mongoose. The only other option is Dirty Trick -> Improved Dirty Trick -> Greater Dirty Trick. That still requires Combat Expertise and can still be removed by a standard action.

You're basically asking what way can you get free sneak attack all the time with almost no investment and the answer is you can't.

Also, it isn't a huge bonus to hit by being Invisible, it depends on the enemy and how much dex they use to their AC.

You should also note, that relying on Invisibility can dramatically become a bad idea. Around level 10 or so many creatures can see invisibility or can cast the spell.

Sovereign Court

It's even more feat intensive - but you could potentially get Moonlight Stalker Feint combined with Greater Feint. It really works better for rogues than for ninjas though, as ninjas are already burning swift actions on ki abilities.


Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber

I assume the Paladin is attacking in melee right? just follow him. Also, don't underestimate the value of telling the other players where to go. you are a team in combat, you will talk to each other and suggest tactics to help the team win.

Just stick with vanishing trick and one SA per round. Take invisible blade at 10th level.


Claxon wrote:

Sure, you might rather spend them on something else. But your complaining that you can't get sneak attack and asking how to fix it.

I'm telling you how to get sneak attack, and there really aren't any other good ways for you to do it until level 10 when you get access to Invisible Blade.

If you're going to ignore flanking and don't want use your Vanishing Trick too much you don't really have much option besides Improved Two Weapon Feint or Circling Mongoose. The only other option is Dirty Trick -> Improved Dirty Trick -> Greater Dirty Trick. That still requires Combat Expertise and can still be removed by a standard action.

You're basically asking what way can you get free sneak attack all the time with almost no investment and the answer is you can't.

Also, it isn't a huge bonus to hit by being Invisible, it depends on the enemy and how much dex they use to their AC.

You should also note, that relying on Invisibility can dramatically become a bad idea. Around level 10 or so many creatures can see invisibility or can cast the spell.

I'm not saying at all that i'm unwilling to invest feats, gold etc, but investing 3 feats for one SA with the worse attack bonus doesn't sound very appealing.

While i like the approach Arcaian suggested, i see your point concerning invisibility. We already encountered enemies with the ability to see invisible creatures.


Brakiri wrote:

I'm not saying at all that i'm unwilling to invest feats, gold etc, but investing 3 feats for one SA with the worse attack bonus doesn't sound very appealing.

While i like the approach Arcaian suggested, i see your point concerning invisibility. We already encountered enemies with the ability to see invisible creatures.

For one Sneak Attack? What are talking about?

If you successfully use Improved Two Weapon Feint you will have 3 potential attacks that all qualify for sneak attack. (Because you have Two Weapon Fighting and Improved Two Weapon Fighting you will have 4 possible attacks at minimum.)


So it sounds like you're level 8 or 9, having two attacks, using only one weapon. Is this correct?
And so your issue is that vanish gives you sneak attack on your first attack, but not your second, which is your last attack, in a full attack.
Is this the situation??


We just reached level 7, i'm using 2 daggers, so TW-Fighting.
Two attacks for a full attack action.

That's the reason i'm talking about "one" attack, because i only have one after the feint action, sorry for omiting that.
You are right of course, more attacks in the future..was just to focused on "today" ;)

Liberty's Edge

If you go with the Decoy Ring it has a great secondary effect. It's last line is "Allies of the wearer always know her true location and can freely provide aid or assistance to her." This lets your party avoid hitting you with AOEs when you are invisible or being stealthy.


Samish Lakefinder wrote:
If you go with the Decoy Ring it has a great secondary effect. It's last line is "Allies of the wearer always know her true location and can freely provide aid or assistance to her." This lets your party avoid hitting you with AOEs when you are invisible or being stealthy.

Hi Samish,

yeah as i said, your suggestion was awesome. It's not only incredibly useful but stylish as well :)
But the ring is kinda pricy so i have to save up for it ;)


Brakiri wrote:

We just reached level 7, i'm using 2 daggers, so TW-Fighting.

Two attacks for a full attack action.

That's the reason i'm talking about "one" attack, because i only have one after the feint action, sorry for omiting that.
You are right of course, more attacks in the future..was just to focused on "today" ;)

Well, to clarify for your sake Improved Two Weapon Feint require Improved Two Weapon fighting, which would mean 4 attacks (3 possible sneak attacks with feinting).

As for doing it at your level....
It's just not really going to work.


Claxon wrote:
Brakiri wrote:

We just reached level 7, i'm using 2 daggers, so TW-Fighting.

Two attacks for a full attack action.

That's the reason i'm talking about "one" attack, because i only have one after the feint action, sorry for omiting that.
You are right of course, more attacks in the future..was just to focused on "today" ;)

As for doing it at your level....

It's just not really going to work.

Jupp, that's the reason for our misunderstanding :)


Brakiri wrote:
Claxon wrote:
Brakiri wrote:

We just reached level 7, i'm using 2 daggers, so TW-Fighting.

Two attacks for a full attack action.

That's the reason i'm talking about "one" attack, because i only have one after the feint action, sorry for omiting that.
You are right of course, more attacks in the future..was just to focused on "today" ;)

As for doing it at your level....

It's just not really going to work.
Jupp, that's the reason for our misunderstanding :)

Indeed, but it's what you should work to for the future. It wont help you much right now though. So you can either pick up more useful feats for the time being and retrain them later, or pick up the feats now and tough it out. Probably depends on how your GM feels about the retraining rules.

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