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This is an idea i had after seeing some of the chatter about the upcoming Shield Brace feat. Basically it is an attempt a a character with exceptional AC and offensive capabilities, perhaps a character that would have been a paladin had things gone differently.
My idea is to use the Eldritch Guardian and Mutation Warrior archetypes and then at level 7 picking up improved familiar for a Cassisian Angel. Looking through the Familiar archetypes, Sage is compatible with improved familiars as it doesnt touch the speak with others of its kind ability like most other archetypes do. Cassisians have a natural form of a winged helm and a lesser protective aura ability they can extend to an ally within 5' of them and constant true speech.
How good of an idea is it to use the Cassisian as basically a magical helmet? It can translate every one around you, guide you through darkness, whisper advice thanks to its perfect memory, every knowledge skill and scaling bonus to knowledge. In combat its every action would be to aid another for a +2 AC against whatever enemy seems most likely to want to melee the fighter and the protective aura for an extra +2 against evil.
AC would be outstanding, eventually with a Mithral medium armor, mithral shield, Defender of the society, shield focus, the +2-+4 from the familiar and all the regular Christmas tree of AC boosters.
Offensive would be great with weapon training, mutagen, power attack and two handing a nodachi.
Skills would be... Good? At level 7 when a Cassisian becomes an option it would have an INT score of 12 for a +1, a +3 from archetype's half level to checks and +3 from any knowledge invested in due to them being class skills. 21 skill points to divide out too so that should be a capable mod to basically every knowledge at that point.
This is opposed to say, an earth elemental familiar with the Mauler archetype to boost offense even higher at the cost of a little AC and most any skill aptitude.
The Cassisisian having alternate forms of a child (for opposable thumb situations) and a dove (for small flying scout situations) is another big draw.
All this at the low cost of three feats from a fighter and armor training.
Oh, and i could name the fighter Sam and call the Angel Cass and basically play Supernatural in Pathfinder.
Am i overlooking anything here, is it worth it?
The only thing you'd be missing here is that the Improved Familiar feat has never been modified from the original Core printing and requires an Arcane Caster Level for any selections. There are, to my knowledge, no errata, FAQs, or developer posts that indicate that your effective wizard level for the familiar counts towards the requirement on Improved Familiar.
Serisan wrote: The only thing you'd be missing here is that the Improved Familiar feat has never been modified from the original Core printing and requires an Arcane Caster Level for any selections. There are, to my knowledge, no errata, FAQs, or developer posts that indicate that your effective wizard level for the familiar counts towards the requirement on Improved Familiar. Well that shuts down PFS. In home games though i think i'd have a solid chance of getting a GM to buy into this. Good point though, thanks!
I am obviously biased in favor of the combination but as i read it you can take Improved Familiar without an arcance caster level, you just need to meet the level requirement when selecting the new familiar. And when you check your level against a familiar requirement the Eldritch Guardian's levels count as wizard, i think Improved Familiar works with the character as is.
STR 16 + 2 racial
DEX 14
CON 14
INT 10
WIS 10 (or 12 with an 8 CHA?)
CHA 10
Traits: Defender of the Society
Second Trait options: Enduring Mutagen, Focused Disciple or Oathbound?
Level 1: Shield Focus, Shield Brace
Level 2: N/A
Level 3: Weapon Focus - Nodachi
Level 4: Weapon Specialization - Nodachi
Level 5: Advanced Weapon Training - Versatile Training - Polearms
Level 6: Power Attack
Level 7: Improved Familiar - Cassisian Angel, Discovery - wings or Spontaneous Healing
Too bad Mutation Warrior doesnt qualify for extra discovery to stack extra flight on.
Given that eldritch guardians share combat feats with their familiars wouldn't you want either a familiar which gets some use out of a no-dachi, or else a different set of feats? It seems a waste to get a familiar with str 3 and no feats it can really use.
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Your biggest problem is that the fighter should be named Dean.
;)
Torbyne wrote:
Too bad Mutation Warrior doesnt qualify for extra discovery to stack extra flight on.
I have come to the opposite conclusions as you have. Here are my rationales. May they will change you mind. If not at least you have the info.
According to Sean K Reynolds it seems like extra discovery should be available to you.
Check out this ruling on class features with different names here. Paragraph 3 and 4 are the relevant ones.
I would say the ruling for this is clearer than that of the improved familiar feat. Though if you GM is cool with it awesome.
"treating his fighter level as his effective wizard level for the purpose of this ability."
If they qualified I would assume this would say for this ability and feats related to familiars. I opt out of things that are unclear to avoid problems but it could go either way I will full acknowledge that.
avr wrote: Given that eldritch guardians share combat feats with their familiars wouldn't you want either a familiar which gets some use out of a no-dachi, or else a different set of feats? It seems a waste to get a familiar with str 3 and no feats it can really use. I was originally thinking of making prominent use of that ability with a Mauler Arbiter Inevitable since it could also fly, dual use a nodachi and shield and keep up a decent strength score. In the end i think that i can easily pull off enough combat effect and survivability with this build leaving room to leverage the familiar into a greatly expanded out of combat role for the character.
The Inevitable would be able to hold its own in combat and probably tear things up almost as well as the PC can. But at that point, how much damage will i really need to be putting out in a round, it almost seems like overkill. (at level 7 an arbiter in medium size would have a strength of 24 which with a two hander, power attack and shield for AC is about all you need to tear things up. and down. and into little tiny pieces.)
Choosing the Cassisian will add loads more skills to make use of and with Aid Another and it's Lesser Protective Aura it would boost AC up to almost unhittable levels considering good armor and a shield.
Grandlounge wrote: Torbyne wrote:
Too bad Mutation Warrior doesnt qualify for extra discovery to stack extra flight on.
I have come to the opposite conclusions as you have. Here are my rationales. May they will change you mind. If not at least you have the info.
According to Sean K Reynolds it seems like extra discovery should be available to you.
Check out this ruling on class features with different names here. Paragraph 3 and 4 are the relevant ones.
I would say the ruling for this is clearer than that of the improved familiar feat. Though if you GM is cool with it awesome.
"treating his fighter level as his effective wizard level for the purpose of this ability."
If they qualified I would assume this would say for this ability and feats related to familiars. I opt out of things that are unclear to avoid problems but it could go either way I will full acknowledge that.
Interesting... i was basing my assumption off the FAQ for archetypes that have specific versions of general abilities of their core classes. so with an ability called something other than "Discovery" i didnt think a Mutation Warrior would qualify. I know SKR is not an official rule source and in this situation it looks like the PDT went a different route after a few more years of consideration (SKR's post was in 2010 while the FAQ was released in 2013)
Improved Familiar is in a weird place beacause it has a requirement to use that is not a pre-req to take the feat, you can take the feat and then only check your spell caster level when selecting a familiar. when dealing with your familiars you all of a sudden do have a caster level. its a corner case but i feel solid on it. Still, when i get to take this character out for a spin i will sit down with the GM and run both options by them to see how it flies.
Interesting I may have missed the FAQ I will look it up.
Grandlounge wrote: Interesting I may have missed the FAQ I will look it up. It should be in the core rule book FAQ list. I'm on a kindle atm and linking on this thing is annoying :/
Quote: Archetype: If an archetype replaces a class ability with a more specific version of that ability (or one that works similarly to the replaced ability), does the archetype's ability count as the original ability for the purpose of rules that improve the original ability?
It depends on how the archetype's ability is worded. If the archetype ability says it works like the standard ability, it counts as that ability. If the archetype's ability requires you to make a specific choice for the standard ability, it counts as that ability. Otherwise, the archetype ability doesn't count as the standard ability. (It doesn't matter if the archetype's ability name is different than the standard class ability it is replacing; it is the description and game mechanics of the archetype ability that matter.)
Example: The dragoon (fighter) archetype (Ultimate Combat) has an ability called "spear training," which requires the dragoon to select "spears" as his weapon training group, and refers to his weapon training bonus (even though this bonus follows a slightly different progression than standard weapon training). Therefore, this ability counts as weapon training for abilities that improve weapon training, such as gloves of dueling (Advanced Player's Guide), which increase the wearer's weapon training bonus.
Example: The archer (fighter) archetype gets several abilities (such as "expert archer") which replace weapon training and do not otherwise refer to the weapon training ability. Therefore, this ability does not count as weapon training for abilities that improve weapon training (such as gloves of dueling). This is the case even for the "expert archer," ability which has a bonus that improves every 4 fighter levels, exactly like weapon training.
Second relevant question.
Quote: When do I count as having a class feature?
You have a class feature when your class description tells you you gain that class feature, generally based on your level in that class (and perhaps altered by factors, see below).
If you have an archetype or other rules element that replaces that class feature, you do not have that class feature. For example, if your archetype replaces a rogue's sneak attack, you no longer have the sneak attack class feature (whether a requirement is as general as "sneak attack" or as specific as "sneak attack +1d6," you do not qualify for it).
If you have an archetype or other rules element that replaces part of a scaling class feature, or delays when you get that class feature, you do not have that class feature until you actually gain that class feature.
Example: If you have a fighter archetype that replaces weapon training 1 (but not weapon training 2, 3, and 4), you don't gain the weapon training 2 ability until fighter level 9, which means you don't have the weapon training class ability at all until you reach fighter level 9. Anything with "weapon training" or "weapon training class feature" as a prerequisite is unavailable to you until level 9.
Example: If you have a cleric archetype that replaces channel energy at level 1 (but not later increments of channel energy), you don't gain the channel energy ability until cleric level 3, which means you don't have the channel energy class feature until you reach cleric level 3. Anything with "channel energy" or "channel energy class feature" as a prerequisite is unavailable to you until level 3.
Example: If you have a witch archetype that replaces your hex at level 1 (but not later hexes, major hexes, or grand hexes), you don't gain your first hex ability until witch level 2, which means you don't have the hex class feature until you reach witch level 2. Anything with "hex" or "hex class feature" as a prerequisite is unavailable to you until level 2.
I see three things being said here. One, if you replace a class feature you lose the ability to use anything keyed off that class feature (your fighter has no armor training). Two, an archetype that provides a partial version of a class feature counts of having that class feature. Three class features are not defined by their name but by their effect (you get a limited list of discoveries thus you get discoveries).
I may be misunderstanding or have the wrong faq, but don't see why this would stop extra discovery. I can see that it is confusingly written because it only talks about the abilities lost (weapon training/ channel in the example) but not what is gained. To me the reasonable conclusion is that partial abilities conferred from archetypes provide that relevant class skills even if they have a different name and are limited in progression. If I'm incorrect guidance would be great.
That would be nice if that is how it parses out. otherwise a Mutation Warrior has to wait until level 15 to take Improved Mutagen, i'd much rather snag Extra Discovery at 13 to pick it up.
avr wrote: Given that eldritch guardians share combat feats with their familiars wouldn't you want either a familiar which gets some use out of a no-dachi, or else a different set of feats? It seems a waste to get a familiar with str 3 and no feats it can really use. Jumping back a bit to reply to this again, weird how some thought trains just jump out at you like some kind of Back to the future reference...
As far as i know only a monkey familiar is able to use manufactured weapons and still qualify for the Mauler archetype as improved familiars don't get some key abilities that most familiar archetypes replace and that is where the rest of the opposable thumb options are.
Also there seems to be some debate about if a mauler gets a strength boost from its size change. If it doesnt than the monkey's 3 STR rating effectively kills the use of any manufactured weapon using Mauler meaning that if you want any combat use of a Mauler you basically have to sink your feats into combat teamwork choices and just use the familiar as a flanking buddy. Not as nearly as fun an option as my talking hat build.
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