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I was looking at the the various feats for Dirty Tricks and I came across some odd wording when it comes to the Dirty Trick Master feat. In particular:
Benefit(s): Whenever you successfully perform a dirty trick combat maneuver against an opponent who is still affected by a condition inflicted by a previous dirty trick (whether your own or another creature's), you can cause the condition to worsen. In addition to increasing the duration of the condition as normal, you cause an opponent who is dazzled to become dazed, entangled to become pinned, shaken to become frightened, and sickened to become nauseated. This worsened condition replaces the previous dirty trick condition, and lasts for the duration of the dirty trick (including any rounds remaining from the previous dirty trick condition)
However, I don't see any wording in the rules for Dirty Trick or in the Greater Dirty Trick feats about the duration of a Dirty Trick stacking with a previous effect. What I mean by this is if you had Greater Dirty Trick and the opponent has 2 rounds of blindness left, if you did another trick that blinded for 4 rounds then the total time is now set to 6 rounds. The rules for Dirty Trick itself makes no allusions to this stacking of durations but Dirty Trick Master seems to imply that the durations do even without this specific feat. Normally I would assume that it just means that the longer of the two durations take precedence but the wording of the feat specifically says "increasing the duration of the condition as normal". This duration stacking isn't mentioned earlier in the feat's description either meaning it isn't referencing something brought about by this feat itself. This makes it sound like there's only one outcome possible when you succeed (increasing the duration) and excludes the duration staying the same or shortening.
To put it simply: Does the duration of an existing condition caused by a Dirty Trick stack with a second Dirty Trick applying the same condition?
Owner - D20 Hobbies
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To put it simply: Does the duration of an existing condition caused by a Dirty Trick stack with a second Dirty Trick applying the same condition?No, it overlaps.
I'm curious, why do you believe they stack Ariaya? Is there a reason you think they are exempt from the standard stacking rules?
I'm curious, why do you believe they stack Ariaya? Is there a reason you think they are exempt from the standard stacking rules?To put it simply: Does the duration of an existing condition caused by a Dirty Trick stack with a second Dirty Trick applying the same condition?No, it overlaps.
The bolded portion in Ariaya's first post says that the normal use of dirty trick adds to duration.
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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The bolded portion in Ariaya's first post says that the normal use of dirty trick adds to duration.
Fair enough. Then I reverse my previous statements.
The conditions are upgraded to a more debilitating condition and the duration is extended.
Given we have RAW language to say this, is your GM interpreting those bold passages differently?
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As MeanMutton pointed out, the wording on Dirty Trick Master seems to imply that, even without Dirty Trick Master, the duration would be extended since it says "In addition to increasing the duration of the condition as normal" without first talking about Dirty Trick Master allowing a stacking of the duration. It was just something that I noticed while looking into making a Dirty Trick character so there's currently no clash between myself and someone else. What it seemed to imply was just really surprising since I hadn't seen it referenced anywhere else (and as James Risner pointed out seemed to go against all of the other stacking rules) and so I was checking to see if there was something I missed while reading the CRB. It was basically just a "Huh, that seems odd" kind of moment. They could have easily just removed the entire first bolded section and it would have saved on word count and meant exactly how people run it.
My guess is that in a first draft of the feat they talked about extending the duration and then went into the conditions worsening, but then in later drafts they switched the order of benefits but some of the wording slipped through the editing cracks. Thanks for the input everyone.
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Which is exactly why I was asking to see if there was something I missed in other places, because with how the phrase is currently placed within the feat it makes very little to no sense to have it included in that way. You guys have all confirmed my suspicions that I haven't missed something elsewhere in the rules, that the durations don't stack without Dirty Trick Master, and that the feat itself is just worded in an odd way. I thank you for the confirmation that I'm not going crazy.
What what?
Ok, if that "In addition to increasing the duration of the condition as normal" isn't in the normal Dirty Trick write up and is in a feat then you only get that when using Dirty Trick Master.
That makes no sense.
The feat only allows you to increase the condition severity for certain conditions you apply, as that is "In addition to increasing the duration of the condition as normal." The bolded language at the very least implies that even without the feat, I can repeatedly Dirty Tricks someone and make that condition that I applied last and last for as many rounds as I care to muster (or until they remove it themselves with a Move or Standard Action).
This means that if I were to, for example, kick a male town guard in the privates (to make them Sickened for 1D4 rounds [average 2.5 rounds] (+X per 5 CMD I surpass) in Round 1 of Combat, and then proceed to do it again in Round 2 of Combat, the feat allows me to make that Sickened condition become the Nauseated condition (combined with Greater Dirty Tricks, this means that if they don't spend a Standard Action to gather their bearings and remove the Sickened condition, they'll be perpetually Nauseated and physically incapable of removing the Nauseated condition from themselves).
Without that feat, I would only extend the duration of the Sickened condition in Round 2 (presuming he didn't remove it in Round 1), and wouldn't be able to increase the Sickened condition to a Nauseated condition.
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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at the very least implies that even without the feat, I can repeatedly Dirty Tricks someone and make that condition that I applied last and last for as many rounds as I care to muster (or until they remove it themselves with a Move or Standard Action).
Got a rule for this? Like a general rule that conditions stack for duration purposes?
at the very least implies that even without the feat, I can repeatedly Dirty Tricks someone and make that condition that I applied last and last for as many rounds as I care to muster (or until they remove it themselves with a Move or Standard Action).Got a rule for this? Like a general rule that conditions stack for duration purposes?
It's cited within the feat. It's not exactly the best place to put such a precedent, though quite frankly it's about as much of a general rule as it is that Natural Weapons are Light Weapons.