ProfPotts
|
A couple more test examples: the first is an even more basic 'hack 'n' slash' concept, the second a little more rounded.
Level: Vigilante (Brute) 1
Height: 6’/12’, Weight: 248/1984 lbs, Eyes: yellow, Skin: dark green, Hair: bald
Speed 30 feet
Base Attack Bonus +0/+1
CMB +4/+6, CMD 14/16
Save Vs: Fort +4, Ref +0, Will +1
Armour Class 12/10 = 10 + Dexterity +0, Armour +2, (Armour +3, Size -1, Brute -2)
Flat-footed 12/10, Touch 10
Hit Points: 14 [1d8 +2 Constitution +1 favoured class +3 Toughness]
Attacks:
Unarmed Strike – Attack +4 [1d3/1d4+4 bludgeoning damage]
Large Greataxe – Attack +4 [3d6+6 slashing, critical x3]
Falchion – Attack +4 [2d4+6 slashing, critical 18-20/x2]
Abilities:
Str 18 [+4] Dex 10 [+0] Con 14 [+2] Int 7 [-2] Wis 12 [+1] Cha 12 [+1]
Racial Traits:
Medium
Normal Speed
Darkvision 60ft
Intimidating
Orc Blood
Orc Ferocity
Weapon Familiarity
Traits:
Brute (Race): +1 on Intimidate checks
[Reserved for campaign trait]
Class Features:
Duel Identity (Chaotic Vigilante)
Brute Fortitude
Brute Form
Seamless Guise
Social Talent (renown)
Feats:
Simple Weapons Proficiency
Armour Proficiency (light)
Shield Proficiency
Improved Unarmed Strike (archetype bonus Feat)
Martial Weapon Proficiency (greataxe & falchion) (racial weapon familiarities)
Toughness
Skills:
Disguise +5 (= +1 rank +3 class +1 Cha)
Intimidate +8 (= +1 rank +3 class +1 Cha +2 racial +1 trait)
Perception +5 (= +1 rank +3 class +1 Wis)
Stealth +4 (= +1 rank +3 class)
Languages:
Common, Orc
Possessions:
Large Explorer’s Outfit (free)
Large Greataxe (40gp)
Large Parade Armour (50gp) (ACP -1)
Soldier’s Uniform (i.e. his civies) (1gp)
Falchion (75gp)
Leather Armour (10gp)
With the Parade Armour and the size bonus in his Brute Form he should be rocking a +14 on most Intimidate checks. He cares less about killing bystanders than the last guy. Note that his falchion and leather armour are part of his ‘social guise’ and he swaps them out for his parade armour and greataxe when he takes the time to switch into his vigilante guise / brute form – he’s not somehow using both sets of equipment at once or anything weird like that...
Level: Vigilante (Brute) 1
Height: 5’9”/11’6”, Weight: 135/1080 lbs, Eyes: deep blue, Skin: fair, Hair: flowing golden locks
Speed 30 feet
Base Attack Bonus +0/+1
CMB +2/+4, CMD 15/17
Save Vs: Fort +4, Ref +3, Will +0
Armour Class 13/15 = 10 + Dexterity +3, (Armour +3, Shield +2, Size -1, Brute -2)
Flat-footed 10/12, Touch 13/10
Hit Points: 11 [1d8 +2 Constitution +1 favoured class]
Attacks:
Unarmed Strike – Attack +2 [1d3/1d4+2 bludgeoning damage]
Large Bastard Sword – Attack +2 [2d8+2 slashing, critical 19-20/x2]
Abilities:
Str 14 [+2] Dex 16 [+3] Con 14 [+2] Int 10 [+0] Wis 10 [+0] Cha 10 [+0]
Racial Traits:
Medium
Normal Speed
Low-Light Vision
Ancestral Arms
Elf Blood
Elven Immunities
Keen Senses
Multitalented
Traits:
Elven Reflexes (Race): +2 on Initiative checks
[Reserved for campaign trait]
Class Features:
Duel Identity (Chaotic Vigilante)
Brute Fortitude
Brute Form
Seamless Guise
Social Talent (renown)
Feats:
Simple Weapons Proficiency
Armour Proficiency (light)
Shield Proficiency
Improved Unarmed Strike (archetype bonus Feat)
Exotic Weapon Proficiency (bastard sword) (racial bonus Feat from the Ancestral Arms trait)
Combat Reflexes
Skills:
Acrobatics +7 (= +1 rank +3 class +3 Dex)
Diplomacy +4 (= +1 rank +3 class)
Disguise +4 (= +1 rank +3 class)
Intimidate +4 (= +1 rank +3 class)
Perception +4 (= +1 rank +3 class)
Stealth +7 (= +1 rank +3 class +3 Dex)
Languages:
Common, Elven
Possessions:
Large Explorer’s Outfit (free)
Large Bastard Sword (70gp)
Large Parade Armour (50gp) (ACP -1)
Large Heavy Steel Shield (40gp)
Entertainer’s Outfit (i.e. her civies) (3gp)
12gp
Our lady half-elf here takes a slightly different approach, aiming to leverage the benefits of having a 10ft natural reach by taking the Combat Reflexes Feat. She still maintains reasonable damage by using a large big-die weapon, and has a bit more defence than the gentleman examples presented.
ProfPotts
|
Looking into this more, the Brute actually isn't very good at Intimidate: in Brute Form you still eat an arbitrary -2 penalty on the one Charisma-based skill you can use (Intimidate). Now, this gets soaked up by the +4 bonus for being larger than your target (reducing that bonus to a mere +2)... but that's only making a difference if you started out the same size (and are now larger) or one size smaller (and now aren't smaller) than your target - otherwise you're just 10% (-2 penalty) less frightening than anyone else...
The weird 'copied and pasted from the rage rules' rules on a Brute Form's limited use of skills also torpedoes their Seamless Guise class feature: it works fine when the Brute is in social guise, but 'cos they can't make Disguise checks (being a Charisma-based skill check) in Brute Form, then anyone who suspects that the big hulking dude in front of them is mild-mannered [insert social identity here] gets to just confirm that unopposed by a Disguise check.
And yes, as the OP points out, the 20 + 1/2 class level DC on the Will check to be allowed to control your own character is insane. Unless you spend a lot of resources on beefing up your Will save you'll essentially only ever be making this check on a natural 20... a 5% chance of controlling how the character acts doesn't seem appropriate for a PC class to me... Even the much-maligned Wild Rager Barbarian archetype has a target DC of (10 + class level + Cha modifier) to control himself - so at least he's got a fighting chance to do so at low levels, and can dump-stat his Charisma to actually improve his odds of remaining in control (I guess social confidence is the enemy of mental stability? Who knows..?). With Brute Form there's not even any other way, besides a successful save, mentioned to get the character back under control. In theory even if the character is left alone (poor moody Hulk-clone!) he still won't be under the PC's control until a save is made... ditto for being restrained or KO'd or whatever... So... perhaps this is a class ability primarily designed to grief player groups?
Maybe Brutes are expected to hire large mobs of professional 'calmers' to follow them around - NPCs with ranks of Diplomacy who leap in and make a big group effort to Aid Another the Brute's Will save when the fight ends? 3gp per day will hire you 10 trained NPCs for the task, for a nice cumulative +20 to your Will save! Problem solved! :)
| whew |
The weird 'copied and pasted from the rage rules' rules on a Brute Form's limited use of skills also torpedoes their Seamless Guise class feature: it works fine when the Brute is in social guise, but 'cos they can't make Disguise checks (being a Charisma-based skill check) in Brute Form, then anyone who suspects that the big hulking dude in front of them is mild-mannered [insert social identity here] gets to just confirm that unopposed by a Disguise check.
The brute can't create a new disguise while raging, but that doesn't mean that a pre-existing disguise instantly disappears. OTOH, the skill is charisma-based, so there should be some penalty because it may be hard to maintain a fake voice/accent while raging.
| Chess Pwn |
Even the much-maligned Wild Rager Barbarian archetype has a target DC of (10 + class level + Cha modifier) to control himself - so at least he's got a fighting chance to do so at low levels, and can dump-stat his Charisma to actually improve his odds of remaining in control
This was errata'd to be (10 + class level + Con modifier) So that includes the increase to con while raging too. No longer can you be a dwarf and dip 2 levels for a DC 9 save.
ProfPotts
|
Seamless Guise (Ex): A vigilante knows how to behave
in a way that appears perfectly proper and normal for
his current identity. Should anyone suspect him of being
anything other than what he appears to be while either in
his social or vigilante identity, he can attempt a Disguise
check with a +20 circumstance bonus to appear as his
current identity, and not as his other identity.
... so the Brute needs to attempt the disguise check when he's in Brute Form and suspected of being Apothecary Banner (or whatever)... but can't, because he can't make Disguise checks in Brute Form. Now we can certainly all house rule more sense into the archetype, but as it stands Brute Form needs some sort of errata to avoid making Seamless Guise (half... it still works when he's in social identity) pointless.
Nice to know they errata'd the Wild Rager to be even less appealing! But I guess it doesn't matter 'cos nobody would be likely to play one (or play one for long if their teammates had any say...) anyway... ;)
Rosc
|
Once I think about it, the best way to play Brute is to utt3rly tank your Reflex and Will. 12 dex max, and aim for 8 or 7 wisdom. Now the party's caster can reliably keep you on a tight leash after every battle.
Early level? Sleep or Grease make you easier for the party to gang up on and grapple. Plus the party Barbarian is able to effortlessly floor you wih nonlethal anyway.
Mid level? Willingly submit to Dominate Person once a week and you're good to go.
| Brew Bird |
I love the thematic implications of characters who use a power that threatens to consume them, or channels an alter ego that might have different goals. The Medium, Master Chymist, Abomination Psychic... Those are some of my favorite characters to role-play, and to build.
The Brute caught my attention immediately, as it was one of those classes, but it also had the dual alignments of the Master Chymist. I was able to make it semi-viable in combat with a dip into Unchained Monk for Flurry of Blows and Wis to AC (and to make sure I could use a Monk's Robe), but was still pretty unimpressive next to the other options. What seemed the most counter-intuitive was the inability to use any of the Avenger talents, many of which absolutely screamed "Hulk".
One day I'll find a way to play a Master-Chymist-type dual-alignment character from 1st level. Fingers crossed for Horror Adventures, I guess.
| cliff newman |
I think I would make 2 changes to the Brute to make it a good archetype.
1. Scaling Equipment would be baked in. Its a Talent Tax just as bad as Combat Expertise.
2. The Will save is way too freaking high. You essentially have to role a 20 on your will save to get out of Vigilante form. A DC of 10 + Vigilante level would be a 50% fail chance. 20 + lvl is just ridiculous.