Simulacrum is weird.

[Frogsplosion]

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/simulacrum

So I'm getting access to this spell soon, and I'm a bit curious about something:

"Simulacrum creates an illusory duplicate of any creature. The duplicate creature is partially real and formed from ice or snow. It appears to be the same as the original, but it has only half of the real creature's levels or HD (and the appropriate hit points, feats, skill ranks, and special abilities for a creature of that level or HD)."

let's say I make a 6th level simulacrum of my 12th level PC, does it need to be an exact copy of my 6th level self, same feats and skill and spell choices? The bold text sort of suggests that I could just make a 6th level simulacrum of myself and give it whatever feat/ability choices I want.

Second, just to complicate things more, This campaign uses the mythic rules, so would the simulacrum have half my mythic tiers?

[Avoron]

This spell has lots of controversy surrounding it, but your question seems straightforward enough, so I'll take a shot at it.

Firstly: talk with your GM. You might have done this already, but if not, you need to discuss whether they will allow simulacrum in the game, how they interpret its effects, and how much they are aware of its dangers. If your GM isn't ready for it, simulacrum can cause significant problems, even when used with the most innocent of intentions. Once (and if) you've agreed to use it, ask if your GM would like to build the simulacrums themselves once you choose which creature to duplicate - that was quite possibly the intent of the spell and will make things run much more smoothly anyway.

That said, I'll assume you've spoken with your GM, they're fine with you using the spell, and they're fine with you building your own simulacrums as long as you follow the rules.

To the best of my knowledge, here's how it works:

The simulacrum doesn't have to correspond to any past version of yourself, duplicating a specific "6th level you," because simulacrums can easily be made of creatures that don't typically exist in lower-level forms.

On the other hand, the simulacrum can't just have whatever 6th level feats, skills, and abilities you want it to - the simulacrum of a 12th level wizard cannot be a 6th level cleric, even though those are appropriate abilities for a 6th level character. It's still duplicating abilities that you have.

So it has to be a 6th level character composed only of abilities also possessed by your 12th level self. In other words, you can't add abilities, but you can choose which ones to take away. For example, if you just have six item creation feats, your simulacrum will have three of those item creation feats. It doesn't matter which three, so long as they qualify for them at level 6. And you can't give them some metamagic feats instead, even if a 6th level character could easily have them.

Does that seem right to everyone else?

As for your second question... oh. You have mythic tiers.
[slow clap] Hah. Hah. Hah.
According to the spell, your simulacrum gets all of your mythic tiers, since they are not tied to your level or HD. Have fun with that.
Did I mention you should talk with your GM?

[Gulthor]

Simulacrum is a complicated spell, but I'll jump in only to say that under no circumstances should a simulacrum possess any mythic ability.

It may be at half power, and you could try to make the argument that that would include half the original's mythic tiers, but I would simply counter-argue that the simulacrum never had a mythic ascension event and was not mythic (nor could they ever become mythic, since doing so would be an increase in power.)

Seeing as Ascension is a 9th level mythic spell that only temporarily grants 1 mythic rank, and even then, only situationally, the idea of a non-mythic spell granting up to 5 mythic ranks permanently is ludicrous. And attempts to argue "RAW" with regards to simulacrum is laughable anyway. So I'll just double down that for the sake of any and all sanity, under no circumstances should simulacrum copy half a mythic creature's mythic tiers or ranks.

[Tacticslion]

Well, you can't, technically have more mythic tiers than half your level, soooooo... >.>

But, yeah, you've just opened up a can of existential angst-worms filled with dread and horror, each of which is a can of existential angst-worms... at least on this thread.

Avoron is pretty much spot-on for the most common and concise understandings of simulacrum and what it does.

Various GMs have different understandings, but, from most common understandings (at least, to the best of my understanding) it is a quasi-indepant "creature" (that is also a spell-effect, though it can't be dispelled, though probably disjoined via mage's disjunction) that obeys you, while otherwise retaining its personality and abilities.

Thus, if you've got problems with authority, a simulacra of yourself will have problems with authority, despite being entirely obedient to you. If you have a massive dragon, the simulacra of that will be a much weaker, still-massive dragon. And so on.

That's about where consensus stops, however. (And it never really reaches that, in the first place.)

Here are a few different interpretations, drawn from memory, about this.

James Jacobs, creative director of Paizo (though it must be emphasized, he is not a rules-guy, and said this, "As one GM to another, not as answering a rules question") noted that he'd use it in the following manner. Let's say you have a mystic theurge - 4th level cleric, 4th level wizard, 2nd level mystic theurge. He'd make the character a 2nd level cleric, 2nd level wizard, and 1st level mystic theurge. But... you can't do that! So... why? Because that's a half-level duplicate that most-accurate represents the character (and, besides, it's not like it's ever gaining levels, so it's not that big a deal, in his opinion). He also rules it that the simulacra doesn't necessarily know that it is, in fact, a simulacra - why or how you have this strange power over it is a mystery unless you tell it that you happened to cast simulacrum. That means, however, that you should talk with your GM.

But there's another guy on the forums, who's played these games for a very, very long time. His interpretation? That the character is simply a spell-created dummy: looks like the creature, imitates (via illusion, given that the spell is illusion) half of what the creature does, and doesn't actually know what the creature knows. Great for sneaking into places and faking being the person, or loyal slave labor, but not much else. That said, this interpretation causes real weirdness with lesser simulacrum so... talk with your GM.

A number of posters have explained that, in their games, they've established that it "regresses" to a previous state - as in, the simulacra is as close to a recreation as possible of the character as they were (sometimes memories and all, sometimes not) six levels or hit dice ago - so dragons lose age categories, masterminds lose details of their latest scheme along with their experience, and liches are turned into their mortal selves. This, then, means you should really talk with your GM.

Quite a number more adopt the reasonable house rule that, no matter how powerful the creature or what it normally has, there is no ability that it retains that is 'higher' than a 6th level spell (considering it was made by a seventh-level spell). This is something that your GM needs to know and understand... talk with them.

Others say that it does exactly what it says on the tin. Huge dragons are still huge, but at half hit dice. Sixty-five year old fighters are still 65 year old fighters, but half their level. Creatures with spell-like abilities still have those, but only half the caster level. Usually this is indicated that there is a character rebuild pushing hit dice, skills, attacks, and feats up to the appropriate number for that level/hit dice indicated. This is the way I see it, and is the most powerful and controversial use, even as it's the most plain-text understanding. This means you should talk with your GM.

I know I'm repeating Avoron, but that's because he's right: hopefully you get the idea that you should really, really talk with your GM. Because that's where the buck stops. Good gaming!

EDIT: Ninja'd while I was writing.

Gulthor wrote:

Simulacrum is a complicated spell, but I'll jump in only to say that under no circumstances should a simulacrum possess any mythic ability.

It may be at half power, and you could try to make the argument that that would include half the original's mythic tiers, but I would simply counter-argue that the simulacrum never had a mythic ascension event and was not mythic (nor could they ever become mythic, since doing so would be an increase in power.)

Seeing as Ascension is a 9th level mythic spell that only temporarily grants 1 mythic rank, and even then, only situationally, the idea of a non-mythic spell granting up to 5 mythic ranks permanently is ludicrous. And attempts to argue "RAW" with regards to simulacrum is laughable anyway. So I'll just double down that for the sake of any and all sanity, under no circumstances should simulacrum copy half a mythic creature's mythic tiers or ranks.

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaand instantly we have an example of exactly what Avolor and I were talking about.

The RAW is clear to some, but extremely dubious to others.

Either way, people have extremely strong opinions on this spell.

So: talk with your GM. That's the important thing to do.

I disagree with Gulthor, due to my reading of the RAW; but I understand his own opinion is that which reflects a better gaming experience for himself and his group. Hence, it's valid for them, even as it's not the one I would choose.

[Scythia]

Indeed, Simulacrum is quite weird. I mean making a sapient being out of ice and snow is definitely strange.

[Frogsplosion]

I've already talked to my DM a bit, although not it full detail yet as he hasn't come to a complete ruling, I was looking for and am now glad to find some feedback on the spell. We are a pretty "rules as written" mechanics heavy group so I'm not sure exactly how it'll go, but thanks for the information.

I do however have another question, can I cast simulacrum on a dead creature? the spell doesn't specify that it needs to be alive for simulacrum to work, so I wasn't sure

[Tacticslion]

Frogsplosion wrote:

I've already talked to my DM a bit, although not it full detail yet as he hasn't come to a complete ruling, I was looking for and am now glad to find some feedback on the spell. We are a pretty "rules as written" mechanics heavy group so I'm not sure exactly how it'll go, but thanks for the information.

I do however have another question, can I cast simulacrum on a dead creature? the spell doesn't specify that it needs to be alive for simulacrum to work, so I wasn't sure

You absolutely can.

Simulacrum.

The question of whether or not it is instantly destroyed is one again - left to your GM.

(I would rule it is not. Others would rule differently.)

[GM 1990]

Here are some thoughts from GM's and players on it from a thread a while back.

It also contains a link to James Jacob input on a much earlier debate about how it works.

Game Altering (or Game Breaking?) Spells: Simulacrum

Some useful info and even a couple examples that really happened in a game, but alas, also some theory crafting which tends to be less productive than sharing how it was used in a real game with real people who likely want to continue to play together.

[Avoron]

Frogsplosion wrote:

We are a pretty "rules as written" mechanics heavy group so I'm not sure exactly how it'll go, but thanks for the information.

Thankfully, making a simulacrum of yourself is one of the tamer ways of going about it. As long as you figure out what you're doing with the mythic tiers, it shouldn't be too difficult to handle. Trying to scale down monster abilities can get very weird, but a 6th level PC is a 6th level PC is a 6th level PC.

But yeah. Simulacrum is weird.

[James Risner]

Avoron wrote:

Firstly: talk with your GM

Talk to your GM, as they are 100% in charge of every aspect of how the 6th level version works, what abilities it has, etc.

Also talk to your players. I played RotRL with a character that got this spell. I'm not kidding, every single player at a dinner after the first night I leveled to get the spell. They all said point blank, if you ever cast that spell in game, I'm done. I'll quit this game. It makes every other PC irrelevant and we don't like being irrelevant.

These might help:
James Jacobs #1
James Jacobs #2
James Jacobs #3

[Tacticslion]

James Rinser has some very... irritable players. I've not run into a similar attitude of open hostility except for on forums such as this - so I s also worth keeping th temperment of your group in mind and being aware of what could be fun for everyone.

[Mathius]

My own rules on Simulacrum are as follows.

No undead or constructs since those are not actually alive in the first place.

No outsiders (except native) since the are their soul.

SLA CL is cut in half, if the spell can not normally be cast at that level it is replaces with a different spell along the same lines.

The Simulacrum thinks it is the original but only knows what the caster knows of the original.

They can replenish spell slots, make magic item, accrue social status and the like.

They can not retrain or gain levels.

Magic heals them at half effectiveness but they do not heal from rest.

The do need to eat, breath, sleep, etc as if they were the original creature. They do not age.

They do not have soul. If a soul is is some how granted to one the creator lose control. GM discretion as to the personality. They can now gain in power and they do age.

[Tacticslion]

Mathius wrote:

SLA CL is cut in half, if the spell can not normally be cast at that level it is replaces with a different spell along the same lines.

This is a very interesting concept. Do you do that even for SLA abilities that normally couldn't be cast at the original creature's CL (I presume)? Do you have some examples?

Otherwise (and even including the above) these are very reasonable house rules, and I like them.

[Alleran]

Tacticslion wrote:

Well, you can't, technically have more mythic tiers than half your level, soooooo... >.>

Yes you can. There's even a statted Paizo NPC who does this (Walkena, an Oracle 12 / Hierophant 9).