Spells that cause combat maneuvers and related feats?


Rules Questions

Scarab Sages

21 people marked this as FAQ candidate.

Mostly curious, do spells like Hydraulic Push benefit from feats like Improved Bull Rush?

PS: Does it matter if the source of the spell is a caster, a wand, or a spell-like ability?

Grand Lodge

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They should.

Definitely yes for spells and SLAs, wands are more questionable.

Edit: Improved Grapple and Black Tentacles is in the arena of "I dunno."


I'm not entirely sure that they should, I would be reluctant to allow it. Near as I can tell the rules are silent so expect table variation.

If they should apply then Black Tentacles is definitely a no for me, as that is a 'fire and forget' spell. It would have to be an immediate effect or one that the caster controls to benefit.


That is a good question. I will just press the FAQ button. I see it as the magic doing the manuever not the caster, but I could be wrong.


FAQ'd

I'd say yes for spells that directly cause a maneuver like hydraulic push if it's a spell or SLA, no if it's a wand (though I admit that last bit is a little arbitrary).

I'd say no for spells that create a thing that then perform the maneuver like Black Tentacles or Chain of Perdition.

Actually scratch that, maybe yes for Chain of Perdition because it refers to 'you' rather than 'their' like Black Tentacles do.

Definitely no for Black Tentacles though. I think.


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It depends on the spell.

For something like thunderstomp, absolutely. You are performing a combat maneuver via a spell, so you should benefit from all the feats that pertain to it.

For something like black tentacles, no. Something created by a spell is performing a combat maneuver, so it does not benefit.

You will have to read each spell on a case by case basis to see who/what exactly is performing the combat maneuver.

It actually seems like a fun build. Imagine a greater trip wizard who uses thunderstop to trip an opponent and provoke for all his allies. Neat.

Silver Crusade Contributor

CampinCarl9127 wrote:
It actually seems like a fun build. Imagine a greater trip wizard who uses thunderstop to trip an opponent and provoke for all his allies. Neat.

My tattooed sorceress has that spell... I should think about this. ^_^


Yeah, the only thing about that is it requires a BaB of 6 which you won't get for quite a while. And it requires three feats as well as an INT score of 13 (not an issue for int-based classes but it may be an issue for wisdom or charisma based classes). It's one hell of a nifty trick though.


If it uses your stats you are performing the maneuver. If it's using a construct's stats the construct is performing the maneuver.


it's not that big of a problem. Feats are expensive especially for such a limited use. A wizard has bigger issues than combat expertise, improved and greater trip.


What about other modifiers? Does being prone effect your hydraulic push? Thunderstomp? Tentacles?


I don't think they do, but admittedly I don't think there is a clear answer.

FAQ'd.


I've got a tangential question on this topic:

If I am a Spellslinger wizard with a magic gun, and I cast Hydraulic Torrent through the gun, do I add the gun's enhancement bonus to my CMB check?

How about Forceful Strike with Reach Spell metamagic applied to it?

Scarab Sages

DM Livgin wrote:
What about other modifiers? Does being prone effect your hydraulic push? Thunderstomp? Tentacles?

Depends if being prone directly affects your CMB. My understanding is that it does not directly affect it. It can affect you attack roll, which indirectly affects your CMB.

So, if the spell is affected by your melee attack roll, then the CMB for the spell should be as well. Otherwise, being prone won't affect it.

The tentacles one seems iffy, as they are summoned, and the tentacles use their own modifiers. Or at least, that is my understanding of the spell.

Liberty's Edge

The Hydraulic Maneuver feat allows Hydraulic Push to be used for other maneuver types. Doesn't answer the main question, but notably it doesn't work if the Hydraulic Push comes from a wand or other magic item. Thus, at least suggestive that other maneuver feats also wouldn't work with items.


I'm not sure what grounds there would be for denying something like Improved Trip with any kind of trip that a character actually performs themselves, since it's about skill at tripping regardless of the means.

There isn't really any ambiguity in "you ("you" being crucial) receive a +2 bonus on checks made to trip a foe".

The ease of taking Knowledge is Power with a Wizard makes a lot of spell-based combat maneuvers rather... interesting.

Scarab Sages

CBDunkerson wrote:
The Hydraulic Maneuver feat allows Hydraulic Push to be used for other maneuver types. Doesn't answer the main question, but notably it doesn't work if the Hydraulic Push comes from a wand or other magic item. Thus, at least suggestive that other maneuver feats also wouldn't work with items.

If you look, that feat is Undine Only and requires Hydraulic Push as a spell-like ability. And Undines naturally have Hydraulic Push as a spell-like ability.

I don't think it suggests anything other than that Hydraulic push can only be used as the spell describes, without this feat to modify.

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