Student of Philosophy: what is "persuading"?

[Ascalaphus]

The trait Student of Philosophy is often brought up as an optimization trick to use Diplomacy while dumping Charisma.

Student of Philosophy wrote:

You were trained in a nowdefunct philosophical tradition—such as that of the nowdestroyed Galtan universities or Lirgeni astrologers—and learned to use logic and reason to persuade others. You can use your Intelligence modifier in place of your Charisma modifier on Diplomacy checks to persuade others and on Bluff checks to convince others that a lie is true. (This trait does not affect Diplomacy checks to gather information or Bluff checks to feint in combat.)

My question is: what does it mean to persuade people? The Diplomacy skill has three main functions:

1) Improve attitudes
2) Make requests
3) Gather information

Obviously SoP doesn't apply to #3, and does apply to #2. But does it apply to #1?

[BlackJack Weasel]

thats a tough one, i'd say no it doesn't improve someones attitude to you because whilst you can convince someone that you're a great guy through what you say and how you act, you don't actually try and persuade people into liking you.

[Manly-man teapot]

Given that the trait explicitly spells out uses that are not covered, I'd interpret it to cover those uses that are not excluded.

[MendedWall12]

Manly-man teapot wrote:

Given that the trait explicitly spells out uses that are not covered, I'd interpret it to cover those uses that are not excluded.

This. I'd take the word persuade to mean both #1 and #2. Also, in contrast to BlackJack Weasel, I think it is very possible, through logical argument, to persuade someone to "like" your character. This is because in this situation to "like" means simply to adjust the friendliness of someone's attitude. This is a mechanical application of rules, and not a real-world approximation of social interaction.

[Ridiculon]

Why wouldn't it apply to number 3? Can you not persuade someone to tell you something they know?

[Harley Quinn X]

Ridiculon wrote:

Why wouldn't it apply to number 3? Can you not persuade someone to tell you something they know?

Because it explicitly says it doesn't.

[MendedWall12]

The text of the ability specifically says it does not apply to gather information checks. Check the OP.

Edit: Ninja'ed

[Ridiculon]

oh, missed that bit, my bad

[Renata Maclean]

Persuading a single person to give information would fall under function #2. Function #3 is as the Gather Information skill in 3.5, gathering information from a community rather than an individual

[SheepishEidolon]

Ascalaphus wrote:

My question is: what does it mean to persuade people? The Diplomacy skill has three main functions:

1) Improve attitudes
2) Make requests
3) Gather information

Obviously SoP doesn't apply to #3, and does apply to #2. But does it apply to #1?

You can point out that the problems between you both are rooted in misunderstandings - this is persuading to improve an attitude. Here logic convinces the other creature, which makes using Int modifier reasonable.

You can tell jokes and laugh at the other person's jokes to improve their attitude - but I wouldn't count this as a persuasion. Here social skills save the day, which means Cha modifier should apply.

Yes, it's a bit nitpicky, but it forces the player to roleplay their intelligent PC properly.