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Like nefreet...
>.>
<.<
...I haven't commented in this thread yet...
But, now that I'm here, in a 20 point buy system I'd consider a 12 to be average (technically 13, since six stats at three points each equals eighteen). With that in mind, anything below a 12 would be a "dump stat".
So, of my 30+ characters...
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So, I'd have to say that hit point survivability is important to me. Probably #1. It's not uncommon for my PCs to have the most HP at the table. I aim for at least 9 HP/level. Even my 12th level Witch, as an example, had 110hp (4/level, +3 Con, +1 Toughness, +1 FCB).
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Thank you for reminding me to take a mental note in fights to have the GM-run opponents roll a Perception check to see who is injured to single out for targeting.Me: Arcanist guy, you're lookin' pretty scorched right now, yes?
AG: Yeah, not doin' so hot.
Me: Cool.
Lich casts Quickened Magic Missile at the Arcanist.
AG: Aaaaaaaand I'm dead.
I'm quick to remind GMs that it's a move action, myself.
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People can generaly play what they want as long as it is actually PFS legal.
However it is good to remember that PFS is a cooperative game. Coordinated group tactics, playing together well and getting along with team members not only is one of the best ways to have a fun game, it´s also tactically one of the best ways.
There once has been a recommendation to have a 14 CON on any character.
That´s pretty safe. Not always necessary, but safe.
A CON lower than that is also fine, but character death becomes more likely the lower your CON is.
And if you´re using some win on the first round tactics either obliterating the whole encounter or putting you in grave danger of dying, expect the GM to adapt to that.
It´s also a nice move to point such things out before game, because the GM then has the chance to adapt a bit as much as the scenario allows.
Remember this is a cooperative game and not competitive? Hence all players should have some fun.
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Thank you for reminding me to take a mental note in fights to have the GM-run opponents roll a Perception check to see who is injured to single out for targeting.I'm quick to remind GMs that it's a move action, myself.
Action: Most Perception checks are reactive, made in response to observable stimulus. Intentionally searching for stimulus is a move action.
I've always played it that if someone has half their skin burned off from a fireball while another person was barely singed, it's clearly visible and so would be a (free) reactive Perception check. But then, I also always tell PCs what level of wounds the bad guys have in my narration of the effects of their attacks. The DC to notice a visible person is 0, and I think "notice" covers a lot more ground than "recognize the existence of". The PCs benefit from this approach much more than the bad guys do, due to the shear number of bad guys they wound.
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I would always recommend at least a 12 con.
He's right to a certain extent however. Often times it doesn't matter at low-levels though as lucky crits are almost always instant death or unconsciousness in low tier games. My level two Fire Druid for core died last Saturday with a 14 Con. I was full HP and was crit with a longbow by a ranger with favored enemy human (was human). Died by 2 points.
Needless to say the Loincloth Cayden Cailean and the Apple of Norgorber did nothing to save me.
I'm with the group that supports playing whatever character you want and play it however you want to play it... as long as you stick to the tenants of PFS; Explore, Cooperate, Report. Of those three Cooperate is the most important for the player. I cannot stand people who refuse to cooperate in PFS. If you want to play one of "those" types of PCs, then find a different game, because PFS is not the place.
That being said... it is not my responsibility to utilize all my resources to bring back your PC if you refuse to adequately protect yourself or make a really stupid decision. That is the Player's responsibility. Now, if a PC goes down in a blaze of glory or due to unlucky die rolls and they need a little assistance in getting that Raise Dead or maybe need some help with a Restoration, then I will gladly help them.
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I would always recommend at least a 12 con.
He's right to a certain extent however. Often times it doesn't matter at low-levels though as lucky crits are almost always instant death or unconsciousness in low tier games. My level two Fire Druid for core died last Saturday with a 14 Con. I was full HP and was crit with a longbow by a ranger with favored enemy human (was human). Died by 2 points.
It can sometimes save you from those crits too. My 14 Con bard was critted with a greataxe at level 2 by a mook (he had an AC at least 20, so after the crit threat I figured that he wouldn't confirm) and he was dropped to -12. It made me very glad that I hadn't made the bard an elf.
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While it's true that sometimes your con wont matter. It's also true that you can't depend on someone tanking for you, so you do need to plan for your own defense.
From a serpent's skull campaign the alchemist was constantly sitting at around 28 AC with high strength and intimidation. Okay, I later started questioning just how he pulled this off after i got the book the alchemist class is in. But initially I had no idea the player might be cheating.
In one early encounter we all nearly got killed by a stupid lizard that did an aoe attack after mister alchemist poked the lizard's nest with the proverbial stick.
Later on we encountered a hippo and dire bear. I was in favor of avoiding the fight. Mister Alchemist attracted their attention. Bear won initiative, ignored the giant felinoid meat tank, and mauled my sorcerer. First hit took me down to 1 HP, second hit took me down to -9, then Rend went off and I was dead. That was on round one. The 'tank' of the group hadn't even gotten a chance to act yet.
Of course later the guy's alchemist was the victim of a succubus. He'd tanked wisdom, so his will save was horrible. He kept failing the will saves against everything the succubus threw at him. Charm, dominate person, suggestion (kisses), everything. But his fort save was so high that he kept saving vs the level drain. The party had to flee because his excessively powerful alchemist would otherwise have killed us in 2 rounds. Maybe 3 if we're lucky.
It took his alchemist a month in-game to die.
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I think the big thing is simply, how many resources do you spend on keeping yourself alive?
Stats in a point buy are resources, but so are things like spell selection, gear selection, feat selection, what consumables you acquire and when you use them, that sort of thing.
Especially if you know what you're doing and things don't go horribly wrong in the low levels, a 10 con is perfectly survivable at low levels. At higher levels, you just have to make the corresponding investments later to shore up the weak points it tends to leave. Belts and ioun stones don't hurt, either.
Increasing Con is often an efficient way to improve survivability, but for some builds the benefits don't outweigh the costs.
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Fixed your pun for you.
Increasing Con is often an efficient way to improve survivability, but for some builds the benefits don't not outweigh the CONS .
Ha... just looked at the post and went, "Wait, something's not right here. Oh, crud. I should probably fix that."
I think your pun is better than mine, by far.
Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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I'm quick to remind GMs that it's a move action, myself.Thank you for reminding me to take a mental note in fights to have the GM-run opponents roll a Perception check to see who is injured to single out for targeting.Me: Arcanist guy, you're lookin' pretty scorched right now, yes?
AG: Yeah, not doin' so hot.
Me: Cool.
Lich casts Quickened Magic Missile at the Arcanist.
AG: Aaaaaaaand I'm dead.
Shouldn't it be a heal check anyway?
A dramatic wound is not always an incapacitating wound. Perception gets you the first one, heal gets you the second.
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Shouldn't it be a heal check anyway?I'm quick to remind GMs that it's a move action, myself.Thank you for reminding me to take a mental note in fights to have the GM-run opponents roll a Perception check to see who is injured to single out for targeting.Me: Arcanist guy, you're lookin' pretty scorched right now, yes?
AG: Yeah, not doin' so hot.
Me: Cool.
Lich casts Quickened Magic Missile at the Arcanist.
AG: Aaaaaaaand I'm dead.
You'd think so, but there are actually no hard set rules for it (such as what the DC would be).
It's one of those houserules that most people at my tables are usually fine with, but I make it clear it's a houserule.
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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link to an older thread...
When-starting-a-new-PFS-Character from Nov 9, 2012.
from that thread...
"An AC of 18 and only 10 HP? How do you survive in combat?"
"Ah... I'm a 2nd level wizard?"
"And a dagger and crossbow for weapons? What kind of joke is this?"Yep, heard that a while back... the funniest part was the critic really couldn't see how his friend could possibly run that kind of character.
I am reminded that my wizard has only his staff, and I don't think he has ever actually used it as a weapon. I'm pretty sure he has a sling and a pair of cold iron kunai in his gear, just because it is in the "pathfinder starting kit" I put on all my characters, but I didn't even bother noting them on his combat sheet.
Ironically, he also has a 16 con, and doesn't go con dead till -23 (Chronicle boon and scarab sages faction card boon)
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I was playing last night, and another player was playing Kyra. She apparently has a 14 Charisma. He wanted to deselect while channeling, and could only do 2 people.
GM: Dang! I thought she was better built than that.
Me: What?!
Yeah, this was a secondary or tertiary ability in a 20-point buy, and she was getting slammed for only having a 14. Probably one of the best pregens.
Use eagle's splendor, Kyra!
As for the OP's bard cannon, I'm just confused by it. A core bard with 18 Cha is gonna do... what exactly? Sure their DC's are high, but like bards don't have whole lot of offensive damaging spells, especially not in the core book only. They'd be a good controller maybe?
And how many people are going to *know* unless a person gets taken down what their CON is? It's not like it's tattooed on the character's forehead, is it?
No. We're saying that if you have a 10 or less con don't expect other people to pay for it.
The fact that other people don't know what you are doing does not excuse someone from the consequences of having done it.
Consider that a 10 vs 12 CON is literally 1 HP at first level and only 12 at twelth. The thought is you have less time to stabilize once you go negative. My experience in most character deaths, is that 1 HP per level wouldn't have mattered.
It's also a lesser fort save and such other things. I've never settled for less than a 12 con in any character I've made for PFS or otherwise. There's also no point in maxing out a caster stat when your main role is buffing.
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There's also no point in maxing out a caster stat when your main role is buffing.
It can be if you keep a couple of sparsely used, but extremely useful spells that allow saves. Cacophonous Call is an example. My bard may spend 97% of his time buffing, but when the need arises to whip out "the call" I want to make sure it is effective. Not all buff characters are strictly buff. Many also de-buff and most of those controller-type spells allow a save.
Consider that a 10 vs 12 CON is literally 1 HP at first level and only 12 at twelth. The thought is you have less time to stabilize once you go negative. My experience in most character deaths, is that 1 HP per level wouldn't have mattered.It's also a lesser fort save and such other things. I've never settled for less than a 12 con in any character I've made for PFS or otherwise. There's also no point in maxing out a caster stat when your main role is buffing.
A maxed out caster stat for a Human is 20, which gives an extra 1st level spell to prepare at level 1 (and up). It also gives you a +1 to some potentially important skills. A Bard also gets 1 more round of Bardic Performance.
Also note that the difference between a 12 con and a 10 con is 3 hitpoints, since you get 1 more hitpoint and can go to -11 (instead of -9).
Consider that a 10 vs 12 CON is literally 1 HP at first level and only 12 at twelth. The thought is you have less time to stabilize once you go negative. My experience in most character deaths, is that 1 HP per level wouldn't have mattered.It's also a lesser fort save and such other things. I've never settled for less than a 12 con in any character I've made for PFS or otherwise. There's also no point in maxing out a caster stat when your main role is buffing.A maxed out caster stat for a Human is 20, which gives an extra 1st level spell to prepare at level 1 (and up). It also gives you a +1 to some potentially important skills. A Bard also gets 1 more round of Bardic Performance.
Also note that the difference between a 12 con and a 10 con is 3 hitpoints, since you get 1 more hitpoint and can go to -11 (instead of -9).
Maxing to an 20 generally costs more than just the difference in Con. It means also generally taking lower dex, which means less initative, a lowered reflex save, and making hard decisions about every other stat.
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I'm quick to remind GMs that it's a move action, myself.Thank you for reminding me to take a mental note in fights to have the GM-run opponents roll a Perception check to see who is injured to single out for targeting.Me: Arcanist guy, you're lookin' pretty scorched right now, yes?
AG: Yeah, not doin' so hot.
Me: Cool.
Lich casts Quickened Magic Missile at the Arcanist.
AG: Aaaaaaaand I'm dead.Shouldn't it be a heal check anyway?
A dramatic wound is not always an incapacitating wound. Perception gets you the first one, heal gets you the second.
my PCs will often use a Hat of Disguise to... confuse the issue. Dis-information is better that Dat-information. ;)
Often it doesn't really matter though. Often the monsters never even notice. Though back in LG days I did have an enemy Sorcerer try to cast sleep on my elven wizard - 'cause she looked like a Human Paladin (and the Paladin had my other 'Hat' and looked like my Wizard)...
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Consider that a 10 vs 12 CON is literally 1 HP at first level and only 12 at twelth. The thought is you have less time to stabilize once you go negative. My experience in most character deaths, is that 1 HP per level wouldn't have mattered.It's also a lesser fort save and such other things. I've never settled for less than a 12 con in any character I've made for PFS or otherwise. There's also no point in maxing out a caster stat when your main role is buffing.
who's buffing?
Hideous Laughter - "please lay down on the ground in front of my friend the fighter..."
Hypnotism, charm person, grease just to name a few.
and the fact that the 20 gives an extra spell available to cast...
hay, I maybe be a CORE bard, but that doesn't mean I'm a BUFFING bard...
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Maxing to an 20 generally costs more than just the difference in Con. It means also generally taking lower dex, which means less initative, a lowered reflex save, and making hard decisions about every other stat.Consider that a 10 vs 12 CON is literally 1 HP at first level and only 12 at twelth. The thought is you have less time to stabilize once you go negative. My experience in most character deaths, is that 1 HP per level wouldn't have mattered.It's also a lesser fort save and such other things. I've never settled for less than a 12 con in any character I've made for PFS or otherwise. There's also no point in maxing out a caster stat when your main role is buffing.A maxed out caster stat for a Human is 20, which gives an extra 1st level spell to prepare at level 1 (and up). It also gives you a +1 to some potentially important skills. A Bard also gets 1 more round of Bardic Performance.
Also note that the difference between a 12 con and a 10 con is 3 hitpoints, since you get 1 more hitpoint and can go to -11 (instead of -9).
well... maybe.
My wife has a starting 20 INT wizard with stats much like my Alchemists (who all normally start with a 20INT). We have to settle with a 16 DEX... (though my Alchemists will often drink a DEX Mutagen to get it up a 20 DEX, and a reduce person to add 2 more...
Strength 10
Dexterity 16
Constitution 10
Intelligence 20
Wisdom 10
Charisma 7
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Maxing to an 20 generally costs more than just the difference in Con. It means also generally taking lower dex, which means less initative, a lowered reflex save, and making hard decisions about every other stat.Consider that a 10 vs 12 CON is literally 1 HP at first level and only 12 at twelth. The thought is you have less time to stabilize once you go negative. My experience in most character deaths, is that 1 HP per level wouldn't have mattered.It's also a lesser fort save and such other things. I've never settled for less than a 12 con in any character I've made for PFS or otherwise. There's also no point in maxing out a caster stat when your main role is buffing.A maxed out caster stat for a Human is 20, which gives an extra 1st level spell to prepare at level 1 (and up). It also gives you a +1 to some potentially important skills. A Bard also gets 1 more round of Bardic Performance.
Also note that the difference between a 12 con and a 10 con is 3 hitpoints, since you get 1 more hitpoint and can go to -11 (instead of -9).
That's certainly true, but it's not the whole story. You're also subject to a case of diminishing returns as you invest in your secondary and tertiary ability scores.
Take your typical 9-levels-of-spells arcane caster, a wizard. They care about intelligence, and... everything else is tertiary?
Here's one possible 20-point buy with a 20 int:
STR: 8 DEX: 12 CON: 14 INT: 20 WIS: 10 CHA: 8
Here's an 18 int array:
STR: 8 DEX: 14 CON: 14 INT: 18 WIS: 12 CHA: 10
Maybe you're not a fan of Charisma? They have a good Will save, maybe they don't need the wisdom:
STR: 7 DEX: 14 CON: 16 INT: 18 WIS: 10 CHA: 9
Don't like dump stats?
STR: 10 DEX: 14 CON: 14 INT: 18 WIS: 10 CHA: 10
I just don't think, as a SAD caster, you get that much out of dropping your primary casting stat to 18 from 20. You can push Con from a 14 to a 16, sure, but it's not the difference between a 10 and a 16.
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Maxing to an 20 generally costs more than just the difference in Con. It means also generally taking lower dex, which means less initative, a lowered reflex save, and making hard decisions about every other stat.Consider that a 10 vs 12 CON is literally 1 HP at first level and only 12 at twelth. The thought is you have less time to stabilize once you go negative. My experience in most character deaths, is that 1 HP per level wouldn't have mattered.It's also a lesser fort save and such other things. I've never settled for less than a 12 con in any character I've made for PFS or otherwise. There's also no point in maxing out a caster stat when your main role is buffing.A maxed out caster stat for a Human is 20, which gives an extra 1st level spell to prepare at level 1 (and up). It also gives you a +1 to some potentially important skills. A Bard also gets 1 more round of Bardic Performance.
Also note that the difference between a 12 con and a 10 con is 3 hitpoints, since you get 1 more hitpoint and can go to -11 (instead of -9).
Another thing to keep in mind is that the relative utility of your stats is affected by how often you use them. If you're a MAD melee class and you're getting hit all the time, the equation's going to look a lot different than if you're a caster. Full casters like spells like invisibility, displacement, mirror image, fly, etc. that make AC and HP less useful because they get used much less frequently. On the other hand, that 20 int or wis or charisma helps with skills, DCs, extra spells per day, etc. that get used much more frequently. It's a longer-term investment but that doesn't make it a bad one.
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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If anything it can be even more important than that for wizards.
Remember, your caster stat also effects your concentration checks. At level 8, with 26 int (+4 headband and +2 from levels) it is nearly impossible for me to fail most concentration checks short of actively being grappled.
Also the difference between 18 / 20 at first level is one 1st level spell, the difference between 24 / 26 at level 8 is one 4th level spell.
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Eh. I have primary casters with maxed out casting stats and multiple dumps and I have primary casters with okay casting stats and multiple other abilities.
I think this discussion focuses more on the importance of Constitution.
When I look at the various stats, most of them have different methods of being mitigated. Strength isn't necessary for Weapon Finesse builds or ranged characters. Dexterity can be subbed by Charisma is a few cases. Intelligence isn't as important if your base class has 8 skills/level (as my Int 5 Ninja will attest to). Wisdom can be shored up with having good Will progression, and possibly items/traits/feats/class abilities. Etc.
But Constitution, as a focus for Fort saves and Hit Points, really doesn't have much ability to be substituted.
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My wife has a starting 20 INT wizard with stats much like my Alchemists (who all normally start with a 20INT). We have to settle with a 16 DEX... (though my Alchemists will often drink a DEX Mutagen to get it up a 20 DEX, and a reduce person to add 2 more...Strength 10
Dexterity 16
Constitution 10
Intelligence 20
Wisdom 10
Charisma 7
Wayang?
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Wayang?
My wife has a starting 20 INT wizard with stats much like my Alchemists (who all normally start with a 20INT). We have to settle with a 16 DEX... (though my Alchemists will often drink a DEX Mutagen to get it up a 20 DEX, and a reduce person to add 2 more...Strength 10
Dexterity 16
Constitution 10
Intelligence 20
Wisdom 10
Charisma 7
Elf, so 10, 14(+2), 12(-2), 18(+2), 10, 7 (thanks for asking!)
Click on Toaster above and see what he's like now (at 12th level)
The +5 INT at 1st had his Bomb Splash damage up to a 6 (or 3 with a good reflex save).
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Wayang?
My wife has a starting 20 INT wizard with stats much like my Alchemists (who all normally start with a 20INT). We have to settle with a 16 DEX... (though my Alchemists will often drink a DEX Mutagen to get it up a 20 DEX, and a reduce person to add 2 more...Strength 10
Dexterity 16
Constitution 10
Intelligence 20
Wisdom 10
Charisma 7
Elf, so 10, 14(+2), 12(-2), 18(+2), 10, 7
Click on Toaster above and see what he's like now (at 11th level)
The +5 INT at 1st had his Bomb Splash damage up to a 6 (or 3 with a good reflex save).
Math comes out the same for either. Just guessing.
10, 14(+2), 10, 18(+2), 12(-2), 7
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Math comes out the same I think for either. Just guessing.Wayang?
My wife has a starting 20 INT wizard with stats much like my Alchemists (who all normally start with a 20INT). We have to settle with a 16 DEX... (though my Alchemists will often drink a DEX Mutagen to get it up a 20 DEX, and a reduce person to add 2 more...Strength 10
Dexterity 16
Constitution 10
Intelligence 20
Wisdom 10
Charisma 7
Elf, so 10, 14(+2), 12(-2), 18(+2), 10, 7
Click on Toaster above and see what he's like now (at 11th level)
The +5 INT at 1st had his Bomb Splash damage up to a 6 (or 3 with a good reflex save).
yeah, he would likely have been a Wayang, but the race was not available when he (and my wife's Wiz) was first played...
and I do some Tieflings that are real close to this...
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That reminds me of when some anti-paladins used smite good on my LN monk. The GM was disappointed when I told her that was unfortunate for them.
There was a Season Six scenario where there was a *glut* of, I want to say anti-paladin.
They all went after my follower of Irori, who can't get any more neutral, and they all lay on the smite.
*mass hilarity ensues for the table, including the GM, especially when my slayer/cleric started using Improved Unarmed strike to subdue them...*
