Retraining - codependent prestige classes?


Rules Questions

Scarab Sages

I've already done a little research into this, so I know retraining base classes into prestige classes is off the table, but what if you take levels in two prestige classes, and one gives the prerequisites for the other?

For Example:

A Fighter 1 / Wizard 5 / Eldritch Knight 3 prestiges into Arcane Archer at Level 10, since that combination of levels gets it the BAB, feats, and spells it needs.

Arcane Archers gain Proficiency with all Martial weapons.

Could that character retrain out of Fighter (into Wizard 6) and still qualify for Eldritch Knight? (assuming its Fighter bonus feat isn't "Precise Shot")


I'm not certain.

You would need arcane archer to qualify for eldritch knight because of weapon proficiency.

But you need eldritch knight BAB to qualify for arcane archer.

I'm not sure of the legality, but as a GM I would probably tell you no, you can't use two prestige classes to qualify for each other.


Originally, the retraining FAQ limited its impact to not allowing retraining of a base class to the particular prestige class the base class helped you qualify for. This clearly was a violation of the spirit of the rules, if nothing else. It would relatively quickly allow for a character that was only a prestige class.

However, because people are want to revel in shenanigans, boundaries were still pushed so the result of the FAQ became:

FAQ wrote:
Update 10/16/13: New ruling: You cannot use retraining to replace a base class level with a prestige class level.

You cannot replace any base class level with any prestige class level.


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

If you took AA at 10th level, and then retrained F1 to W6, you would no longer meet the requirements for AA, specifically the proficiency with a bow.

You would not meet the minimum requirements for both PCs, so you would no longer be able to use any of the abilities of either class.

Once you again meet the minimum requirements, you would regain the abilities.

I think that is how it would work.

Edit: It would take more than just gaining proficiency with a bow to to regain requirements, since you would not have access to the BAB from EK to re-qualify for AA.


fretgod99 wrote:

Originally, the retraining FAQ limited its impact to not allowing retraining of a base class to the particular prestige class the base class helped you qualify for. This clearly was a violation of the spirit of the rules, if nothing else. It would relatively quickly allow for a character that was only a prestige class.

However, because people are want to revel in shenanigans, boundaries were still pushed so the result of the FAQ became:

FAQ wrote:
Update 10/16/13: New ruling: You cannot use retraining to replace a base class level with a prestige class level.
You cannot replace any base class level with any prestige class level.

That's not what he's trying to do.

He has a 9th level character that is fighter 1, wizard 5, eldritch knight 3. He is gaining his 10th level and taking it as arcane archer.

So F 1, W 5, EK 3, AA 1.

He wants to retrain that fighter level into a level of wizard. He's not touching the prestige class levels at all.

But I still don't think it's legal because he's using fighter to qualify for eldritch knight, and eldritch knight to qualify for arcane archer, but arcane archer grants (again) the rules element he needs to qualify for eldritch knight. If he had enough wizard levels to have BAB 6 (and qualify for AA otherwise) I would say he could retrain the fighter level, but he doesn't.

He wants to use arcane archer to qualify for eldritch knight and eldritch knight to qualify for arcane archer.

Scarab Sages

Queen Moragan (emphasis mine) wrote:

If you took AA at 10th level, and then retrained F1 to W6, you would no longer meet the requirements for AA, specifically the proficiency with a bow.

You would not meet the minimum requirements for both PCs, so you would no longer be able to use any of the abilities of either class.

Once you again meet the minimum requirements, you would regain the abilities.

I think that is how it would work.

Edit: It would take more than just gaining proficiency with a bow to to regain requirements, since you would not have access to the BAB from EK to re-qualify for AA.

I should have clarified: the example is an Elf with Weapon Familiarity, so Bows are baked in.


Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber

I would agree that you can't do this. You need to have the necessary foundation to qualify for the PrCs. Since you can't qualify for one w/o the other, you don't have the foundation to "build" your PrC on.

You still have the problem that you either don't have the BAB for EK or the Martial Weapon Prof for AA.


Claxon wrote:
fretgod99 wrote:

Originally, the retraining FAQ limited its impact to not allowing retraining of a base class to the particular prestige class the base class helped you qualify for. This clearly was a violation of the spirit of the rules, if nothing else. It would relatively quickly allow for a character that was only a prestige class.

However, because people are want to revel in shenanigans, boundaries were still pushed so the result of the FAQ became:

FAQ wrote:
Update 10/16/13: New ruling: You cannot use retraining to replace a base class level with a prestige class level.
You cannot replace any base class level with any prestige class level.

That's not what he's trying to do.

He has a 9th level character that is fighter 1, wizard 5, eldritch knight 3. He is gaining his 10th level and taking it as arcane archer.

So F 1, W 5, EK 3, AA 1.

He wants to retrain that fighter level into a level of wizard. He's not touching the prestige class levels at all.

But I still don't think it's legal because he's using fighter to qualify for eldritch knight, and eldritch knight to qualify for arcane archer, but arcane archer grants (again) the rules element he needs to qualify for eldritch knight. If he had enough wizard levels to have BAB 6 (and qualify for AA otherwise) I would say he could retrain the fighter level, but he doesn't.

He wants to use arcane archer to qualify for eldritch knight and eldritch knight to qualify for arcane archer.

Ah right. Misread. Good call. I'm with you. If you could independently qualify for one, you could use that to qualify for the other. But no, I think the purpose behind the FAQ still applies here - you can't bootstrap requirements like that.

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