The PRD provides a bunch of rules for how spells (and by extension, spell-like abilities) stack or overlap, however it seems to be silent on the matter of (Su) abilities.
For example, if a party had two 6th Level Madness Domain Clerics, and they both used the "Visions of Madness (Sp)" ability on the same target (granting -3 to saving throws, and +3 to skill checks) the target would not have a net -6 to saving throws and +6 to skill checks because the effects are coming form the same source (i.e., the same (Sp) ability).
But if two witches use Evil Eye (Su) on the same target, do those effects stack?
What if a Shaman uses Evil Eye (Su) and and Witch uses Evil Eye (Su) on the same target. Would those stack? In this case, one is a divine caster and the other an arcane caster... also, the two Evil Eye abilities are different, in that one is mind-affecting, and the other is not.
What if a Halfling Shaman with "Halfling Hex" alt racial trait and the "Malicious Eye" feat uses Evil Eye on a target (allowing the Halfling Jinx penalties to be stacked ontop of the evil eye penalties), and a second Halfling with the "Halfling Hex" alt racial trait uses his Halfling Jinx on the same target? would the effects stack?
The section on stacking may only refer to spells but it is intended to extend to everything. In short, two effects that are the same do not stack unless there is a rule that states it does.
The section on stacking may only refer to spells but it is intended to extend to everything. In short, nothing stacks unless there is a rule that states it does.
If that's the case, would it seem that the two witch evil eyes would not stack, but the witch/shaman combo would stack, as would the shaman/halfling jinx combo?
Witch and Shaman Evil Eyes are the same (and both are Mind-Affecting).
Oh! I hadn't noticed the errata. Thanks.
Spell and Magical Effects are treated the same as spells.
Same source doesn't stack, so two Evil Eye won't stack.
If two effect are not identical, but from the same source (Evil Eye), then only one of them works. The two riders don't stack, only one of them functions.
Your last point is incorrect. If they have two different effects then they are not stacking at all and both apply.
See this FAQ
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If two effect are not identical, but from the same source (Evil Eye), then only one of them works. The two riders don't stack, only one of them functions.Your last point is incorrect. If they have two different effects then they are not stacking at all and both apply.
See this FAQ
Hmm, I was thinking of this FAQ when I draft that reply.
That FAQ has interested implications. Such as multiple castings of Resist Energy should stack. So you could have Resist Cold and Fire 30 active simultaneously using that FAQ.
Strange the little differences.
I have always thought you could have multiple res energys up for different energy types.
If two effect are not identical, but from the same source (Evil Eye), then only one of them works. The two riders don't stack, only one of them functions.Your last point is incorrect. If they have two different effects then they are not stacking at all and both apply.
See this FAQ
Hmm, I was thinking of this FAQ when I draft that reply.
That FAQ has interested implications. Such as multiple castings of Resist Energy should stack. So you could have Resist Cold and Fire 30 active simultaneously using that FAQ.
That FAQ was addressing two ways to get the same benefit, which is not the same as using the same spell to get different benefits. The rule seems to be that like does not stack and unlike is not stacking at all.
But, yes, you can have multiple resistances up. Two casters casting Resist Fire and you would have only the larger resistance, while two casters applying different resistances give you both.
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two casters applying different resistances give you both.
That is far from universally applied by GMs and I'm unable to reason how that is true with the "same effect different results" rule. The same spell twice, but one is fire and one is cold is same effect different result. So by the stacking rule, they shouldn't stack. At least to a fair number of GM's I've played under.
I'm also unsure myself.
It isn't the same effect different results.
It is two different effects.
Resist Energy <Fire> and Resist Energy <Cold> are two different effects.
If they were the same effect then a creature could not possess two different energy resistances.
Ok...so "Resist Energy" is a spell.
Resist <type> is an effect. Resist Energy grants Resist <type> <amount>.
If Resist Fire 10 cannot be stacked with Resist Cold 10 then a whole lot of modules have things wrong. There are lots of times where a creature already has some measure of Energy Resistance and then casts a spell (or similar) to become resistant to another type of Energy.
They are absolutely, 100% not the same effect. Each type of Resist <type> is it's own effect.
How does that reasoning fail? Lets try it on a different spell:
"Mage Armor" is a spell. The effect is a +4 Armor bonus.
The reasoning appears sound.
"Resist Energy" (the spell) grants Resist <type>. Resist <type> is the effect, "Resist Energy" is the spell. I think people get that confused.
But, if it is like you say, then no monster can have more than one Resist <type> effect and then that means the Bestiary is written incorrectly.
Aasimars have acid resistance 5, cold resistance 5, and electricity resistance 5.
You will see, it is calling them out separately. They are separate effects.
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that means the Bestiary is written incorrectly.
Aasimars have acid resistance 5, cold resistance 5, and electricity resistance 5.
It is well admitted by all developers that there are mistakes or deviations in Bestiary books, in great quantities. A bestiary entry shouldn't ever be used as proof.
As for Aasimar having natural resists in multiple forms. None of those are effects or spells. They are natural.
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This whole question isn't new, isn't settled, and isn't going away until we have a FAQ that settles it.
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A bestiary entry shouldn't ever be used as proof.
The evidence of dozens of bestiary (and other stat block) entries should not be dismissed.
That said... seriously, does ANYONE play that it is impossible to have more than one type of energy resistance at a time and all the creatures showing this are erroneous?
Heck, what about PCs? Think of all the classes, archetypes, and other options which grant energy resistance... even before casting a spell. Heck, the Expanded Fiendish Resistance feat REQUIRES you to take resistance to an energy type different from what you already have.
Until James Risner stated it, I had never heard of someone saying you cannot have multiple, different, energy resistances from the spell Resist Energy.
They are different effects.
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That said... seriously, does ANYONE play that it is impossible to have more than one type of energy resistance at a time and all the creatures showing this are erroneous?
Enough people have prohibited me from doing (Resist Fire and Resist Cold), that I pretty much never ask anymore. I just do Protection from Fire and Resist Cold now.
Just because a bunch of people get the rules wrong doesn't mean they are right. :)
They are probably going 'you cannot stack stuff which means you cannot stack spells' when in this case it is incorrect. You have one spell with five possible effects.
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A bestiary entry shouldn't ever be used as proof.The evidence of dozens of bestiary (and other stat block) entries should not be dismissed.
That said... seriously, does ANYONE play that it is impossible to have more than one type of energy resistance at a time and all the creatures showing this are erroneous?
Heck, what about PCs? Think of all the classes, archetypes, and other options which grant energy resistance... even before casting a spell. Heck, the Expanded Fiendish Resistance feat REQUIRES you to take resistance to an energy type different from what you already have.
That is not what James is saying, and it is something I have seen, as well.
He is saying that casting Resist Energy won't stack with another Resist Energy, even if they are cast for different elements.
For the same element, that is, definitely, true.
For different elements, that is, actually, debatable.
Stacking
Stacking refers to the act of adding together bonuses or penalties that apply to one particular check or statistic. Generally speaking, most bonuses of the same type do not stack. Instead, only the highest bonus applies. Most penalties do stack, meaning that their values are added together. Penalties and bonuses generally stack with one another, meaning that the penalties might negate or exceed part or all of the bonuses, and vice versa.
Combining Magic Effects
Same Effect with Differing Results: The same spell can sometimes produce varying effects if applied to the same recipient more than once. Usually the last spell in the series trumps the others. None of the previous spells are actually removed or dispelled, but their effects become irrelevant while the final spell in the series lasts.
I think it is that specific section that some GMs interpret as disallowing multiple casts of Resist Energy for different energy types.
The problem is that this is not the same effect with differing results. It is the same spell with different effects.
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The problem is that this is not the same effect with differing results. It is the same spell with different effects.
The problem with that logic is effects is short hand for spells and magic effects.
Combining Magic Effects
Spells or magical effects usually work as described
That whole section uses spell and effect interchangeably.
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That said... seriously, does ANYONE play that it is impossible to have more than one type of energy resistance at a time and all the creatures showing this are erroneous?Enough people have prohibited me from doing (Resist Fire and Resist Cold), that I pretty much never ask anymore. I just do Protection from Fire and Resist Cold now.
Stacking: Stacking refers to the act of adding together bonuses or penalties that apply to one particular check or statistic. Generally speaking, most bonuses of the same type do not stack. Instead, only the highest bonus applies. Most penalties do stack, meaning that their values are added together. Penalties and bonuses generally stack with one another, meaning that the penalties might negate or exceed part or all of the bonuses, and vice versa.
Not-Stacking don't mean "a new effect can't be added", it man "only the strongest has any effect".
So let's loo what happen if we cast Resist energy (cold) and Resist energy (fire).
Resist energy (cold) give me 10 point of cold resistance, 0 of acid, electricity, fire, or sonic resistance.
Resist energy (fire) give me 10 point of fire resistance, 0 of acid, cold, electricity or sonic resistance.
Now I apply the strongest effects:
10 point of cold resistance from Resist energy (cold), 10 point of fire resistance from Resist energy (fire), 0 of acid, electricity or sonic resistance from both either spell.
They are non stacking but they work perfectly together.
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This is the one I've always wondered about:
Temporary hit points, in general, stack.
But does False Life stack with Greater False Life?(and other similar variations on this theme)
Only temporary hit point from different sources stack.
Temporary Hit Points: Do temporary hit point from the same source stack?
No. Generally, effects do not stack if they are from the same source (Core Rulebook page 208, Combining Magical Effects). Although temporary hit points are not a "bonus," the principle still applies.
This prevents a creature with energy drain (which grants the creature 5 temporary hit points when used) from draining an entire village of 100 people in order to gain 500 temporary hit points before the PCs arrive to fight it.
Temporary hit points from different sources (such as an aid spell, a use of energy drain, and a vampiric touch spell) still stack with each other.
Edit:
False Life, Greater
School necromancy; Level alchemist 4, sorcerer/wizard 4, witch 4
This spell functions as false life, except you gain temporary hit points equal to 2d10 + 1 point per caster level (maximum +20). The effects of this spell do not stack with those of false life.
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They are non stacking but they work perfectly together.
We know that if an effect doesn't stack with another effect, then it doesn't matter if the other effect is the same thing. They still won't stack.
Now maybe there is a difference in "does not stack with" language and things without that language. But we know when something doesn't stack with, even if they don't have the same effect, they don't stack. The older one is ignored.
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They are non stacking but they work perfectly together.We know that if an effect doesn't stack with another effect, then it doesn't matter if the other effect is the same thing. They still won't stack.
Now maybe there is a difference in "does not stack with" language and things without that language. But we know when something doesn't stack with, even if they don't have the same effect, they don't stack. The older one is ignored.
1) Read my citation: "Generally speaking, most bonuses of the same type do not stack. Instead, only the highest bonus applies."
2) Read yours: "If you have two spells with effects other than bonuses and those spells or effects are called out not to stack, that means that the effects that apply to the same rules component or situation do not stack,"
So 1) say that only the strongest applies.
2) isn't relevant at all. Energy resistance is a bonus and it don't say that the effect don't stack.
Read carefully that FAQ, it is not speaking about the general stacking rules, it is speaking of spells where there is a specific piece of text that say that "effects other than bonuses ... are called out not to stack".
I think the confusion between "stacking" and "combining" is the root of the issue here.
Do resist fire 10 and resist cold 10 stack? I think everyone would agree that no, they do not stack -- combining them does not give you resist fire 20 and resist cold 20.
However, combining them to get resist fire 10 and resist cold 10 should be fine (although that is the real point being debated here).
Exceptions to combining effects should have language like that given for the Bracers of Armor magic item, which explicitly does not combine with magic armor.