Half Orc Battle Oracle - Advice needed

[Kenky]

So I am working on developing a Half-Orc for PFS. I will likely start him at level 2 using XP from playing with Pre-gens. Below you will find his stats.

Half Orc
Toothy alternate trait

Traits
Anatomist
Indomitable Faith

Stats
Str 14 +2
Dex 16
Con 14
Int 10
Wis 8
Chr 12

Level 1
Feat - Exotic Weapon - Fauchard
Mystery - Battle
Oracle’s curse - Tongues
Revelation - Weapon Mastery (Fauchard)
Level 2
Level 3
Feat - Combat Reflexes
Revelation -Maneuver Mastery (Trip)
Level 4
Level 5
Feat -Power Attack
Level 6
Level 7
Feat - Extra - Resiliency
Revelation - Iron Skin
Level 8
Level 9
Feat - Extra - War Sight
Level 10
Level 11
Feat -
Revelation - Battlefield Clarity

I am not sure why I want to use a Fauchard, but they seem awesome and I am willing to drop a feat on them. I am not sure what feat to take at level 11 or if my general feats make sense.

Lastly I want some opinions on the Stat Array. I hate the idea of losing a skill point, but maybe one less skill point is better then the -1 to Will saves. Also is 12 charisma high enough starting? I figured I could get an item to boost it later to be able to cast all my spells. Also I figured it would be hard to get the DC high enough and I would take mostly buff spells.

Finally the Strength versus Dex. I could flip the two. I was wondering what people thought about the trade off of +1 to hit/damage, versus 1 more attack of opportunity once I get combat reflexes.

Thanks Everyone!

[Renegadeshepherd]

No a 12 charisma for an oracle is WAY too low. For a full caster I could never advise being less than a 14. The beauty of a battle oracle is that almost everything you need as a melee combatant is handed to you over time, like weapon focus and such. So what I would ask you is what do you want to do with all your spare feats? Be a better caster, supporter, or what?

Secondly, your alternate racial trait of toothy isn't ideal. Half orcs can get better things like sacred tattoo is so much better. Combined with fates favored trait you get +2 to all saves to a class that gets only one good save.

Third, your weapon is a great choice so don't back away from it if you want it. Battle oracle synergizes well with the weapon too. So Definitely go strength. 16 is good but 18 is best.

My stat array would be 16(18),10,14,10,10,14. Be a beast in battle in your heavy armor and go with it. Use your spells in the support role that you don't need high DCs in. Bump your charisma high enough to use your highest spells. Strength is essential for your weapon for the maneuver and damage.

Combat reflexes is a trap because you won't be able to use it as much as advertised. Instead at level 3 get power attack for your damage output will sore, especially with strength 18. Getting +3 damage to every attack vs getting one more attack some of the time is a no brainier to me.

That's enough to get ya going. Will offer more if you know what you want besides that weapon and the advantage it offers.

[Aerodin]

So a few things.

Stats 18 Str and 14 Cha

Traits

Fate's favored (for sacred tattoo and Divine Favor)
You don't need to add to your best save so bump fort or take Lessons of Chaldira.

Other options are Tusked (for a bite attack) or reactionary which pairs well with War Sight

I don't like EWP I don't think it is worth it, but if it ever is this is the weapon.

Level 1
Feat - Exotic Weapon - Fauchard
Mystery - Battle
Oracle’s curse - Tongues
Revelation - Skill at Arms
Level 2
Level 3
Feat - Power Attack
Revelation - War Sight
Level 4
Level 5
Feat - Extra revelation - Surprising Charge
Level 6
Level 7
Feat - Extra - Weapon Mastery
Revelation - Battlefield Clarity
Level 8
Level 9
Feat - Toughness or Extra - Combat Healer of improve init
Level 10
Level 11
Feat -
Revelation - Iron Skin

Here is my reasoning.

- Heavy armor is need to get through the first few levels.
- Power attack is a huge damage boost for all builds
- War sight. You are a caster and buffing first matters and matters a lot
- Surprising Charge. Run out of a fireball, add extra move to a charge, move then full attack, and many other useful applications.
- Level 7 is the time for Weapon Master. Before this it's just a +1 to hit. At 8 it's early access to Improved Crit, which is awesome. Their are so many ways to get +1 to hit before this its not worth the investment any earlier.
- The rest I just included because they are good. Iron skin can only be taken at 11 so I moved it. The other 2 are in the order of value, in my estimation.

More out there suggestion.

Dual cursed Wolf Scared and Deaf or anything and legalistic. Put a point into linguistics for Lip Reading. Now you have a bite attack and at level 5 you take Misfortune.

Misfortune is great and gives you something to do with your swift action most turn. Your big losses are enlarge person and perception as a class skill. perception you can make up with a trait. And potions of enlarge person are better than casting it because it only takes a standard to drink a potion not the full round for casting.

[Kenky]

Yes. I think in hindsight bumping the Char to 14 is the better choice.
My idea was with a decent dex, combat reflexes, the bite attack, the enlarge person as a mystery spell, and the reach weapon, he would threaten everything in 20 feet. The natural attack does allow for AoO, right?

I was envisioning him maintaining battle field control and buffing himself/allies to help kill things faster.

I don't think Dual curse is that appealing to me.

My question with the heavy armor is that "is it worth it?" The Arcane Failure is 35-40 percent on most of them. That means in any given scenario, 1 in 3 spells will fail. That seems rather unreliable. Chances are that it would fail in an emergency situation.

[Sam Calinean]

Arcane spell failure doesn't apply to divine casting. Which Oracle's are, so you shouldn't skimp on it if you can.

[Aerodin]

Arcane failure does not apply to divine spells so you can ignore it. The problem with this as a Dex based build is you will not get Dex to hit with your weapon and you won't be doing much damage. This results in splitting your stats too much Combat reflexes is good in theory but it's easy to get around at mid to high levels.

You have the right idea with how to set this up but you really only need 12 maybe 14 dex to do it. Once enemies know you can take multiple attacks of opportunity they will avoid you.

My experience is it is hard for a battle oracle to cast enlarge person because of the full round casting time. Add to that to a 20 move speed it can keep you out of the battle for a while. Preventing you from setting up the front line you want.

Slide combat reflexes in there. It combos really well with surprise charge to get you in the right place.

Your stats could be s18 d12 co14 i8 w10 ch14

Or

Switch the 8 in int to wisdom.

[Markov Spiked Chain]

Since you've already got Martial Weapon proficiency, buy a Cracked Opalescent White Pyramid Ioun Stone if you have the books. It's only 1500gp, which is cheap for a feat. I'd recommend Combat Reflexes instead, since you've got good Dex, a reach weapon, and a Bite attack to threaten adjacent as well.

[Fernn]

Aerodin wrote:

Arcane failure does not apply to divine spells so you can ignore it. The problem with this as a Dex based build is you will not get Dex to hit with your weapon and you won't be doing much damage. This results in splitting your stats too much Combat reflexes is good in theory but it's easy to get around at mid to high levels.

You have the right idea with how to set this up but you really only need 12 maybe 14 dex to do it. Once enemies know you can take multiple attacks of opportunity they will avoid you.

My experience is it is hard for a battle oracle to cast enlarge person because of the full round casting time. Add to that to a 20 move speed it can keep you out of the battle for a while. Preventing you from setting up the front line you want.

Slide combat reflexes in there. It combos really well with surprise charge to get you in the right place.

Your stats could be s18 d12 co14 i8 w10 ch14

Or

Switch the 8 in int to wisdom.

On the contrary, a large battle oracle with reach, will dominate the battle field, so its not per say that "enemies will avoid you"

BUt more of, "enemies will have a hard time getting through your threathened squares to get to you and your allies.

He could even go fury's fall, and add his dex bonus to his CMB as well. Making him an even greater threat to any one that provokes an AOO.

Which would fall right into line with the manuver mastery Revelation.

[Aerodin]

I know the strategy and have a battle oracle for it. What I have found is that in close quarters enemy's are on you before your spell goes off and in open fields they just spend a turn going around you. Not to say it's not valuable it's just harder to get the value you want.

I found running up front with surprises charge drawing and drinking a potion to be the best way to make this work. War sight combines really well because you get to act in the surprise round. This is how I stake out a good battle feild spot.

My feeling after playing a build like this was that it felt to reactive I could be neutralized by good tactics or other melee characters get out infront of me. Hitting from behind provides opponents cover and negates aoos.

As people have said this can combine with manuvers well.

I like this style build but I would not put all my eggs into it. Good old dpr or the awesome buffing and utility casting are options when setting up a patrol is not a great choice. Like when going large forces everyone to squeeze, against really fast moving and or flying creatures, when there is lots of cover, when you are surprised closed in upon.

In the same way the manuvers are good for this build it worth considering that tripping is best against medium bipedal creatures and not more than 1 size larger than you. Dirty trick blind is good but only against conventionally sighted creatures.

When this is good it's really good but it is not always the case. I was trying to offer a more well rounded build.

[Aerodin]

Markov Spiked Chain wrote:

Since you've already got Martial Weapon proficiency, buy a Cracked Opalescent White Pyramid Ioun Stone if you have the books. It's only 1500gp, which is cheap for a feat. I'd recommend Combat Reflexes instead, since you've got good Dex, a reach weapon, and a Bite attack to threaten adjacent as well.

This is actually a great suggestion I'm sad i forgot about this stone.

[Kenky]

It is true that I don't want to be a one-trick pony. Because if something comes up and totally negates the build, then I would be dead weight. I need to digest all the ideas and I may post a build later. I would love to have a dex of 14, and Chr of 14. If I put Con as 12 and take toughness does that get enough HP? Or am I shorting myself for someone on the front-lines? What about an 8 in both Int and Wis to get some extra points?

For that Cracked Opalescent White Pyramid Ioun Stone, is it just from the Seekers of Secrets?

[Aerodin]

It a lot to take in so mull over it and my ideas are not perfect by any means, but this has been my experience. I don't like d8 frontiers with less than 14 con. You could use toughness to compensate and move some feats around. Alternatively, at later levels you can add a second stat to your belt or pick up an ioun stone for 8000g that give you +2 to an ability score con or Dex.

Yes that is the sorce book for that stone!

[Kenky]

I am thinking that this is my build for this character. I may design a person who threatens 20 ft with lots of AoO on a later date and play in a home game.

But here is some sort of battlefield control, buff, and decent melee damage
Half Orc
Sacred Tattoos alternate trait

Keyish Items
Cracked Opalescent White Pyramid Ioun Stone: Fauchard
Armor Spikes to threaten everything in 10 ft, 20 if enlarged

Traits
Fate’s Favored
??? Can determine later

Stats
Str 16 +2
Dex 12
Con 14
Int 10
Wis 8
Chr 14

Level 1
Feat - Power Attack
Mystery - Battle
Oracle’s curse - Tongues
Revelation - Skill At Arms
Level 2
Level 3
Feat - Extra - Surprising Charge
Revelation - War Sight
Level 4
Level 5
Feat - Extra - Resiliency
Level 6
Level 7
Feat - Extra - Maneuver Mastery (Trip)
Revelation - Weapon Mastery (Fauchard)
Level 8
Level 9
Feat - Extra - Battlefield Clarity
Level 10
Level 11
Feat - ??? - Can figure out later
Revelation - Iron Skin

[Markov Spiked Chain]

You can't take Power Attack at level 1, so you'll need to swap your 1st and 3rd level feats.

[Kenky]

Oh! Good catch, thanks!

[Aerodin]

Looking good. If you want 14 dex I think you would need 9 and a 7 in Int and Wis. It's a tough call as to its value.

Hope you have fun with the build

[plaidwandering]

or just drop str to 17, and even it up at level 4

[plaidwandering]

phalanx formation is another feat to consider, so allies don't give cover/block aoos

[Targutai Minyatur]

Agree that you need more str.
You may re consider taking dual cursed oracle, the re-roll is awsome. If you have a save or suck caster in your team you can make them re roll that dc 21 will to the bad guy, you get double crit-corfirmations and saves o maybe take another revelation. Some curses are pretty much meh, i can live with it..
Consider taking a dip into paladin, cha to all saves and smite evil may be usefull, you get heavy armor, more weapons and some archetypes rocks.
Of course that will cut your casting but makes you harder to take down and gives some feats for free.
I think you are taking Battlefield clarity too late, is too good to pass till 9.

My english is not the best, i apologise if i have too much faults

[Aerodin]

plaidwandering wrote:

or just drop str to 17, and even it up at level 4

A 17 primary stat is a great way to even out a build

plaidwandering wrote:

phalanx formation is another feat to consider, so allies don't give cover/block aoos

This is a great feat it reduces the penalties to hit and lets you fight past allies but it does not prevent opponents from providing cover. How would you put it in a battle oracle build. What level feat?

[plaidwandering]

I'd probably put it at 5 on a half orc.

Were I doing a reach/large build I'd want combat reflexes at 1, power attack at 3, and that leaves 5, the 'extra' revs can push back. I might even consider using a long spear for a while and taking skill at arms later.

I strongly disagree that combat reflexes is not good with a reach weapon, especially with a user that will sometimes be large. Large is a bonus, not a requirement for reach weapon to be good.

[Kenky]

I have been wondering about stat advancement at levels 4,8,12. In theory you get three so having that 17 isn't so bad because it will cap at 20. On the other hand, the 12 level gain is kind of irreverent because your character retires at after 12 if I remembering correctly. Opinions?

[Aerodin]

I was not making the case that it was bad. More that it is unreliable in a lot of situations so you should have other aspects to the build.

I like combat reflexes but you still need to hit reliably and do decent damage. If you can't do decent damage your just putting 10 here and 10 there. Which is not optimally effective. The other option is to get stand still so you actually stop people from getting to your allies.

[*Khan*]

What about pushing assault? Isn't it better and quicker to get than stand still?
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/pushing-assault-combat

[Aerodin]

*Khan* wrote:

What about pushing assault? Isn't it better and quicker to get than stand still?

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/pushing-assault-combat

It is a better overall. Having to power attack and having a size limit are both downfalls. But as written stand still is only adjacent squares which is a much worse limitation.

My feeling is if you want to set up a patrol to protect allies you need more then the threat of damage to stop them. It is worth taking a hit to kill a wizard most of the time.

If the goal is to increase your dpr by getting more attacks in then you can skip the feat and take phalanx formation instead.

[*Khan*]

Another note on reach weapons and aoo:
Does your gm use gridmaps in combats? Do you use miniatures?
Without those reach weapons and tactical feats sucks. Then just stick with power attack, weapon focus, improved initiativ and other generic bonuses.

[Deadmanwalking]

*Khan* wrote:

Another note on reach weapons and aoo:

Does your gm use gridmaps in combats? Do you use miniatures?
Without those reach weapons and tactical feats sucks. Then just stick with power attack, weapon focus, improved initiativ and other generic bonuses.

This is not necessarily true.

I use neither a grid nor miniatures, but do use AoO and flanking. If anything, I'm probably overly generous in what I let my players flank, making such things more useful rather than less.

[*Khan*]

Battlefield control and intelligent tactical combat gets MUCH easier and with fewer misunderstandings when you use af grid map and miniatures. But it is more time consuming, so it really depend on what style your group like to play.

[Deadmanwalking]

*Khan* wrote:

Battlefield control and intelligent tactical combat gets MUCH easier and with fewer misunderstandings when you use af grid map and miniatures.

Again, this isn't inherently true. It depends on the group and the GM. I'm just finishing up GMing CotCT run sans tactical maps with an entire party where all the melee characters took Outflank (and one used a reach weapon almost the whole game). There've been precious few debates, and none seem to feel cheated.

*Khan* wrote:

But it is more time consuming, so it really depend on what style your group like to play.

This part, I agree with entirely. It's gonna vary widely from group to group. I'd just argue that 'not having a map = tactical Feats aren't worthwhile' is a vastly overly simplistic analysis.