Hey,
So what I am looking for is what kind of penalties/modifiers/conditions would apply to a group of people fighting (as in, combat) but trying to remain undetected to a third group that was somewhat nearby.
It is DC -10 to hear a pitched battle. Now in addition to the regular modifiers for distance and walls or doors in the way, what kind of modifier would you add if one or both sides were trying to keep it quiet?
I'm sure you can think of lots of examples where this might come up - trying to take out one or two sentries before the rest of the guards become aware is, I think, the most obvious.
So please, let me know what you think the rules would be in this situation - even if you think the rules say it's impossible.
Thanks
No modifiers. None whatsoever. If just one side wants to yell and scream and insult your mother, then they will. Regardless, the sound of swords clashing, fireballs bursting, people screaming in agony as their guts are ripped out or their flesh is burned off, it's all loud. All of it.
Just because some of the combatants are refusing to yell and shout doesn't mean that all the rest of that noise goes away.
But that is for a "pitched" battle. Which has nothing to do with stealthily sneaking up and silently killing an enemy Assassin's Creed style.
Having said that, Pathfinder has no rules for it. Use a Silence spell or it's just as noisy as a "pitched battle". Even if your stealthy rogue sneaks up and one-shots a guy with a sneak attack, that guy still yells and screams and falls and clatters on the ground and dies in loud agony. Or whatever - but there are no rules saying that you can do this silently.
I vaguely recall an archetype that has a special class ability to perform silent kills like this, but don't remember what it is. Sadly, that's limited to a single archetype of a single class which means that all the rest of us cannot figure out how to do it.
Me, I'd talk this over with your GM and make house rules for it. Any skilled stealthy sneak attacker should be able to figure out how to make a silent kill without having to belong to a single rare archetype to do ti.
That's what I thought.
Luckily, I am the GM.
So it is of to houserules we go. Also, did not know about the archetype - I'll have to track that down.
Thanks very much.
I would say without something special to modify the situation (silence spells, for example) it is impossible to change the base DC for combat.
The 'sound of battle' isn't precisely defined. I would consider it to be a full round of initiatives. If the guards were taken out in the surprise round or without getting a chance to act, I would probably make it DC -5 (the equivalent of terrible conditions on sounds of battle) or even DC 0 if their were other circumstances such as the guards not wearing armor that would be loud when they collapse or the PCs being right their to catch them if they fell. If it was a single blow that killed them in melee (such as a rogue sneak attack) I would probably allow a stealth roll (at a penalty, probably -5 like moving) to silently bring the corpse to the ground.
Obviously these are rules exactly, but basically the circumstance bonuses and penalties I think would reasonably apply.
Beyond that I think it is reasonable to allow in some cases the equivalent of a masterwork tools bonus (in this case actually a penalty to the others perception) for specialized weapons for the job, using a sap instead of a sword for example.
There is a feat, Silent Kill, available only to a few classes (need Assassinate class feature) at 12th level. Seems pretty far out of reach.
There is more than one archetype, but still only a few at most.
This thread has some useful information.
There is a feat, Silent Kill, available only to a few classes (need Assassinate class feature) at 12th level. Seems pretty far out of reach.
Although called silent kill, it is actually more sneaky murder. People can theoretically see the person fall over with a knife sticking out of them and not realize you killed them.
It is quite a bit more then only changing the 'sounds of battle' DC.
If the combat was in view of potential observers, then I would certainly require it, but if we are talking about taking out guards far enough away from camp to be concealed by darkness or on the other side of a wall from their buddies (in other words, no line of sight) then I don't think something that powerful is required to at least apply penalties to potential listeners perception.
Applying circumstance bonuses is something a GM can, and should, do. It is basically the mechanic for 'everything we didn't think of or couldn't spell out.'
The archetype is the swashbuckler infiltrator archetype. basically when you make a trip or grapple maneuver, your target is muted for a full round.
The archetype is the swashbuckler infiltrator archetype. basically when you make a trip or grapple maneuver, your target is muted for a full round.
I didn't look it up, but if it's just "muted" then I'm not sure you have accomplished much - all the other sounds of battle are still loud and clear.
Make them fall asleep first. Drugs, spells, whatever. Then kill them silently with a pillow over their mouth. That should be a fairly silent kill.
Or...
Arrange a loud distraction in some other location. Then they won't notice the little noise over here.
/cevah, practitioner of sneakiness
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If both sides are trying to prevent the third party from hearing, then a Stealth roll at -10 sounds reasonable. Roll a Perception check at the start of each round, and when any combatant takes a turn they need to roll to beat the Perception check or the 3rd party is alerted. If any combatant decides not to roll, then the combat is automatically detected on that turn (unless other abilities are in play).
A friend of mine had this play out when a high-level party rogue ran into a rival while they were both attempting to rob the same house. The two rivals began a very quiet fight, trying not to alert the homeowner.