silent takedowns ala Batman / Hitman / Dishonored


Advice

Liberty's Edge

So I'd like to build a character that can sneak up on isolated enemies, grapple them, and then keep them from crying out while they're being choked into unconsciousness. The best I can do so far is to get close enough to touch while in stealth, initiate a grapple during the surprise round, win initiative, and then use Kraken style to keep them from shouting out. Is there a smoother and/or less risky way to accomplish this?


First, the DC to hear sounds of combat is -10 (you can't use stealth while attacking so you always just use the DC -10.)

You need to fix that first. Without using something like a Silence spell, EVERY attack you make, even the sneakiest attacks, give everyone around you a DC -10 Perception check to hear you make that attack. Have you found an attack that has specific text that overrides this basic rule? You need that first. Or a Silence spell or some other similar magic.

If you are using a Silence spell, then you have nothing to worry about; the target can't shout anyway.

If not, the base rule makes it pretty much impossible unless they are really very isolated. Enemies 160 feet away with an average WIS (10) and no ranks in Perception can automatically make that perception check with a Take-10. And if the guy yells for help, who's to say that yelling isn't LOUDER than combat, so the DC could be -15 or -20 (no real rule for it) so it could be heard even farther away.

So, if by "isolated" you mean the victim is at least 200 or more feet away from his nearest potential ally, maybe 300 feet to be safe (listeners could have ranks and/or roll very well), then it might not matter. But if it's less "Isolated" than that, you're in trouble.

So first figure out how to make the attack silently. If you can do that, then you might have already solved your whole problem.

As for Kraken Style, it doesn't stop the victim from yelling. You need Kraken Throttle Style which will take you a few levels and a lot of feats to get there. But, even that doesn't make combat silent - the guy is suffocating, sure, but even the Suffocation rules say NOTHING about whether the guy can yell for help while holding his breath. By strict RAW, it looks like he can, but I think most GMs would rule (house rule) that he cannot.

Assuming your GM rules that way, you still need to Maintain the grapple on the second round to apply Kraken Throttle. Theoretically, with Greater Grapple you can use a standard action to grapple and then in the same round a move action to maintain the grapple which means you could begin the Kraken Throttle in the first round - but the guy can STILL yell for help as a free action on your turn during your Standard action and even between that action and your Move action, long before you actually get the suffocation in place.

So you're back to a Silence spell. Unless someone chimes in with a trick I don't know - we tarrasques don't care about stealth or strangulation much; we just stomp and CHOMP!

The Exchange

Ancient lorekeeper of battle to get invisibility on spell list. Cast invis, then silence on yourself, sneak to the poor sod, grapple him(you did take that revelation that lets you count your oracle lv as your bab, didnt you?). Now he can scream all he wants, no one will hear him.

To do a silent takedown, you need invis and silence on your spell list. A paladin could actually do it, using unsnactioned knowledge, but might not be RP correct. Inquisitors get invisibility and silence on their spell list, and may fit the batman/hitman feel better. Theologian clerics with trickery domain can do it too. For best to grapple, its probably the ancient lorekeeper oracle using that maneuver revelation.

Another unorthodox way of doing it = hexcrafter, slumber hex, then cdg him with a scythe. Assuming the slumber hex lands, he'll never get a chance to scream. Or you could take exotic weapon proficiency (pistol) and perform the cdg with it instead. Still a x4 crit. Though power attacking with a scythe for cdg would do much more damage.


Just a Mort wrote:
Another unorthodox way of doing it = hexcrafter, slumber hex, then cdg him with a scythe. Assuming the slumber hex lands, he'll never get a chance to scream.

That CDG is still an unstealthed combat attack so it counts as "Sounds of Battle" which has a DC of -10. The victim is dead, but that -10 DC can be heard several hundred feet away if the victim's allies have any kind of decent Perception skill and/or very good d20 rolls.

The Exchange

Invis and jump out of the window after(yay flight hex!) Isn't that what they always do in movies? :p

Dark Archive

I commented this before, but by being batman and combining these three items you can effectively cover something in darkness and negate the sounds of battle penalty. This makes it viable as long as the enemy is not in the same room(I.E. stone walls are in the way) Otherwise you must wait for that book with the vigilante in it, as I assume that would be where this problem would be addressed.


And here we find the Shanking Warpriest in its natural habitat...

With Invisibility and Silence fervor-cast upon itself, the Warpriest sneaks up to its victim and eviscerates its pray, slinking slowly back into the shadows once its bloodthirst has been quenched.


The Silen Kill Feat will let you do it as a Ninja or Slayer...at 13th level.

The Stalker Vigilante during the Playtest had a similar ability available earlier.


Rynjin wrote:
The Silen Kill Feat will let you do it as a Ninja or Slayer...at 13th level.

It can be taken at 12th level, since a Rogue/Ninja could just take the Feat Advanced Talent at 12 to gain Silent Kill.

It's not a LOT of consolation, but at least it CAN be used in PFS.


As Rynjin says, the Stalker Vigilante has a silent take down option that is modeled exactly after batman/hitman/dishonored/daredevil etc etc. The play test version of the Stalker is probably the best of the Vigilante roles available.


DM_Blake wrote:
Just a Mort wrote:
Another unorthodox way of doing it = hexcrafter, slumber hex, then cdg him with a scythe. Assuming the slumber hex lands, he'll never get a chance to scream.
That CDG is still an unstealthed combat attack so it counts as "Sounds of Battle" which has a DC of -10. The victim is dead, but that -10 DC can be heard several hundred feet away if the victim's allies have any kind of decent Perception skill and/or very good d20 rolls.

Quickcatch manacles would let you tie them up in a round or so. I couldn't actually find any rules source for gagging people but the concept is mentioned in spell casting ("A silence spell or a gag spoils the incantation (and thus the spell)") and I think it's pretty reasonable to think that a full round action or two is enough to gag somebody if you were planning on it ahead of time.

That's more Batman-ish anyways.


Th Daring Infiltrator swashbuckler has a class feature called "Silence is Golden".

Silence is Golden wrote:
Silence Is Golden (Ex): At 3rd level, when a daring infiltrator with at least 1 panache point succeeds at a trip or grapple combat maneuver check, the target is rendered mute for 1 round. For every 5 by which the result of the combat maneuver check exceeds the opponent's CMD, the target remains mute for an additional round. A mute creature cannot speak, use language-dependent effects or verbal components, or use command words. This deed replaces menacing swordplay.

Or, as others have said, the Stalker Vigilante - which was designed to try and emulate the Batman-type of silent take-down.

Really - I hate waiting for Paizo to come up with mechanics to officially do these things. Since I don't do PFS, I'm used to looking for similar feats or class features and adapting them.


Not sure why nobody has bothered to mention the Chokehold feat: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/chokehold-combat
which is for doing basically exactly what you asked for... It even explicitly states that the person you are choking cannot speak.

Scarab Sages

The problem with both Silence is Golden and Chokehold is while they prevent the target from speaking, they do not do anything to reduce the sounds of combat. It's still a -10 DC perception check to hear the disturbance.


The stealth rules are a complete mess. By the rules, you can't even sneak behind anyone because there is no facing rules and all enemies have "eyes on their backs". I hope someday Paizo fix that to allow a reliable way to dispatch enemies in silent without have to use magic or some clunky class feature.


Vratix wrote:

Not sure why nobody has bothered to mention the Chokehold feat: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/chokehold-combat

which is for doing basically exactly what you asked for... It even explicitly states that the person you are choking cannot speak.

Good call. I'm a little embarrassed because I had thought that's what the OP was talking about in the first place so I was going to include it in my first long post, but that post got long and I was talking about Kraken Throttle and simply forgot to drag Chokehold into it.

But EVERY problem I mentioned with Kraken Throttle applies to Chokehold except the one thing you called out, the victim definitely cannot speak. But it still normally takes two rounds to use Chokehold and the guy can shout as a free action any time in round 1 and any time before you complete the chokehold in round 2. Even with Greater Grapple which theoretically lets you apply your Chokehold on round 1, the victim can still shout during or after your grapple and before your Chokehold.

And even without him shouting, it's still DC -10 to hear you grappling him, just for the noise of combat.


Metal Sonic wrote:
The stealth rules are a complete mess. By the rules, you can't even sneak behind anyone because there is no facing rules and all enemies have "eyes on their backs". I hope someday Paizo fix that to allow a reliable way to dispatch enemies in silent without have to use magic or some clunky class feature.
Stealth wrote:
Your Stealth check is opposed by the Perception check of anyone who might notice you. Creatures that fail to beat your Stealth check are not aware of you and treat you as if you had total concealment. You can move up to half your normal speed and use Stealth at no penalty. When moving at a speed greater than half but less than your normal speed, you take a –5 penalty. It's impossible to use Stealth while attacking, running, or charging.

Stealth is to both Hide and Move Silently. Perception is to Spot and Listen.

So, yes, you absolutely can "sneak behind someone"; nothing in the rules says you cannot - it's now just part of describing what your character does, rather than have specific rules for Facing.

3rd Edition did away with "Facing" rules because those were an absolute pain and didn't work well in the slightest unless you were using minis (your DM and you could have radically different mental images of how people were facing otherwise), instead replacing "Facing" with "Flanking" and Unaware/Flat-Footed.


As for Silent Kill, that only works if you kill the target. The OP wanted to choke them into unconsciousness which is completely incompatible with this feat.

So if you sneak up and stick your dagger in his heart, this feat lets you use your Stealth check instead of the flat -10 DC, a huge improvement. But if you sneak up and grab the guy and even put him in a Chokehold or Kraken Throttle, the feat doesn't apply and the DC is -10 for the victim's allies to hear you.


I'm sure most reasonable GMs would allow it for dispatching foes nonlethally anyway.

Regardless, Chokehold wouldn't work either way. Silent Kill only works if you take them down in the Surprise round, whereas Chokehold takes several minutes to knock a guy out.


chbgraphicarts wrote:


So, yes, you absolutely can "sneak behind someone"; nothing in the rules says you cannot - it's now just part of describing what your character does, rather than have specific rules for Facing.
PFSRD wrote:


Breaking Stealth When you start your turn using Stealth, you can leave cover or concealment and remain unobserved as long as you succeed at a Stealth check and end your turn in cover or concealment.

So you can't keep sneaking behind anyone for more that one round if you don't have cover at the end of your round. And only moving 15ft. while keep your Stealth without stupid penalties (-10) will barely help you to successful sneak past lower level enemies. Do any attack, and all of them will notice you instanly. And don't forget all the creatures who have blindsight/sense or tremorsense.

Dark Archive

You sneak past guards to your target, you wait for the right moment to strike and then you just stab it in face with assassin PrC on level 6, or assassinate trick on level 10. Max your int as Bruce Wayne did.


Rynjin wrote:

I'm sure most reasonable GMs would allow it for dispatching foes nonlethally anyway.

Regardless, Chokehold wouldn't work either way. Silent Kill only works if you take them down in the Surprise round, whereas Chokehold takes several minutes to knock a guy out.

This was why I didn't mention Chokehold. I've been looking for a means to do exactly what the OP has asked ever since I saw the Strangler archetype. Chokehold takes 2 rounds to implement based on the grapple rules - unless you have Greater Grapple (not available at low levels). And does nothing for the noise a foe can make to attract help from nearby allies.

Sap Master runs into similar issues with the PF combat rules. Nearly impossible to knock someone out in a single round for that silent take-down.

Understandable because the designers don't want it to be too easy to go for a c-d-g. Although that may be "for martials to get a c-d-g" since Sleep (spell and hex) is available to casters from level 1.


Yeah, that's clearly true since they nerfed Sap Adept.


you could always play a rogue and get the talent that can give you spells and take silence as on of the spells


Blackvial wrote:
you could always play a rogue and get the talent that can give you spells and take silence as on of the spells

Silence is a 2nd level spell, Major Magic won't let you do that.

I suppose UMDing some scrolls would work.


Rynjin wrote:
Blackvial wrote:
you could always play a rogue and get the talent that can give you spells and take silence as on of the spells

Silence is a 2nd level spell, Major Magic won't let you do that.

I suppose UMDing some scrolls would work.

ah never mind then, instead of a scroll why not carry a wand?


The wand is a much more expensive lump sum. It might be more cost effective in the long run, but you probably don't need anywhere near 50 charges.


Rynjin wrote:
The wand is a much more expensive lump sum. It might be more cost effective in the long run, but you probably don't need anywhere near 50 charges.

better to have the unused charges, than to run out at an important moment


Considering this isn't a tactic any character will be using all the time, if they run out at an important moment, that's a lack or proper preparation.


You could walk around with an item that causes a constant zone of silence.


Silent Kill (Combat).
Forced Quiet instead of Silence, maybe.
Jawbreaker feat, Ultimate Combat.
With enough action economy in Grappling you could probably use Stunning Pin before someone has the chance to shout. Ultimate Combat.
Maybe Befuddling Strike, ACG.
Unchained Rogue: Knockout Blow + Greater Multitalented.

...

I am going to play a little devil's advocate here. The Perception skill doesn't actually say -10 to hear the sound of combat. It says there is a -10 DC to hear the sound of battle. Unless there is a place I'm not thinking of that defines the terms combat and battle within the PF rules, I would not define those two words as being equal.

The only other items in the Perception description which carry the -10 DC is to notice the smell of rotting garbage. On the other end of the spectrum you have a +10 to any Perception DC when you are asleep. These things would say to me as a GM that the +/-10 is applied to overpowering, incredibly hard to miss things. You KNOW when you are close to something that is rotting. On the opposite side of the coin, it can be very hard for people to wake up, there are people who can have full conversations and not be awake; they will have no memory of that conversation. So, when I see, "DC -10 to hear the sounds of battle," I think of noises that would be carried over a great distance and would be unmistakable (ex: Battle cries, swords clashing, swords hitting shields, the sound of armor clashing and clanging about), and we are probably talking about more than two combatants. What I don't picture when I read "sounds of battle" is two guys grappling (unless one yells for help). The sounds of scuffling on the ground and choking someone out, or using short, sharp strikes do not carry very far at all, and would be very mistakable for other things (ex: someone tripping and falling, or a drunk stumbling around an alley). You can even choke someone out standing and bring them to the ground softly, making even less noise than full grappling.

That being the case, I think any of the items I suggested at the top of this post could be sufficient to attempt a silent take down. Obviously there would be some other factors involved in how it plays out. In the case of Befuddling Strike, there are several courses of action the affected combatant may take. One of those is mumbling incoherently to himself, which I feel would be silent enough not to incur the DC of -10. However, other courses of action might make a good deal more noise.

This is more or less how I see it and like I said, I am playing devil's advocate so, YMMV. I realize that by strict RAW this may not be right, and is probably not the way it would be arbitrated in PFS. However, I will leave you with this parting thought:

...Now, if you slay that target with one hit, and still could maintain Stealth from all other foes in the area (if say, it is dark and they cannot see you), a GM might reasonably interpret that you could maintain Stealth from other foes, but that requires GM interpretation and is not really the point of this particular situation.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer


Arrrrgh!

I hate it when developers, especially JB himself, misquote their own rules as if they don't know what they say. That quote shows that our fearless leader assumes (or assumed at the moment he wrote that) that combat is silent, or at least so silent that the noise you make killing someone is adjudicated by a STEALTH check which is clearly 100% against the line of Stealth that says you cannot use Stealth while attacking. His quote clearly ONLY considers Stealth vs. visual perception (as per his parenthetical inclusion that you need darkness so they cannot see you) - it's as if he clearly forgot that HE rolled Listen and Spot into one Perception skill.

I get your point that "battle" and "combat" might be different. The Battle of the Bulge, the Battle for Iwo Jima, etc. Maybe.

But if that is true then the rulebook gives us NOTHING to gauge this on. NOTHING.

It cannot be a Stealth check per the Stealth rules.

Is hearing a man being killed in combat as hard as "Notice the stench of rotting garbage"? Who knows!
Is hearing a man being killed in combat as hard as "Detect the smell of smoke" Who knows!
Is hearing a man being killed in combat as hard as "Hear the details of a conversation" Who knows!
Is hearing a man being killed in combat as hard as "Notice a visible creature" Who knows!
Is hearing a man being killed in combat as hard as "Determine if food is spoiled" Who knows!
Is hearing a man being killed in combat as hard as "Hear the sound of a creature walking" Who knows!

None of these are even remotely like hearing a man being killed (or grappled) in combat. The only one that is remotely like it happens to be, in fact, almost exactly like it, save for subtle nuances in the definition of "battle".

Given a choice of
A) Nothing at all remotely like it
or
B) Almost exactly like it

Well, that choice is easy for me.


iDarken wrote:
You sneak past guards to your target, you wait for the right moment to strike and then you just stab it in face with assassin PrC on level 6, or assassinate trick on level 10. Max your int as Bruce Wayne did.

Bruce Wayne had very, very good stat rolls. Because there's no way that you can get those sort of stats in point buy.

If you're going the Assassin route, take 5 of Unchained Rogue, 10 of Assassin, and 5 of Master Spy. Assassinate DC = 15+INT, along with whatever assassinate-boosting items yo ucan find.

Scarab Sages

My Self wrote:
iDarken wrote:
You sneak past guards to your target, you wait for the right moment to strike and then you just stab it in face with assassin PrC on level 6, or assassinate trick on level 10. Max your int as Bruce Wayne did.

Bruce Wayne had very, very good stat rolls. Because there's no way that you can get those sort of stats in point buy.

If you're going the Assassin route, take 5 of Unchained Rogue, 10 of Assassin, and 5 of Master Spy. Assassinate DC = 15+INT, along with whatever assassinate-boosting items yo ucan find.

Actually, I think Bruce Wayne has a 25 point buy and used his massive wealth to buy +5 tomes for every stat before he went abroad for training.


Shadowlord wrote:
Jason Bulmahn stuff

Not official FAQ, and PF developers LOVE to misquote theirs own rules. Must be a nightmare to play with this guys changing rules all the time.

My Self wrote:
If you're going the Assassin route, take 5 of Unchained Rogue, 10 of Assassin, and 5 of Master Spy. Assassinate DC = 15+INT, along with whatever assassinate-boosting items yo ucan find.

In none of this classes you can dispatch your enemies in full silence. So the Assassin is bad at killing people stealthy. :p


Shadowlord wrote:

Silent Kill (Combat).

Forced Quiet instead of Silence, maybe.
Jawbreaker feat, Ultimate Combat.
With enough action economy in Grappling you could probably use Stunning Pin before someone has the chance to shout. Ultimate Combat.
Maybe Befuddling Strike, ACG.
Unchained Rogue: Knockout Blow + Greater Multitalented.

...

I am going to play a little devil's advocate here. The Perception skill doesn't actually say -10 to hear the sound of combat. It says there is a -10 DC to hear the sound of battle. Unless there is a place I'm not thinking of that defines the terms combat and battle within the PF rules, I would not define those two words as being equal.

The only other items in the Perception description which carry the -10 DC is to notice the smell of rotting garbage. On the other end of the spectrum you have a +10 to any Perception DC when you are asleep. These things would say to me as a GM that the +/-10 is applied to overpowering, incredibly hard to miss things. You KNOW when you are close to something that is rotting. On the opposite side of the coin, it can be very hard for people to wake up, there are people who can have full conversations and not be awake; they will have no memory of that conversation. So, when I see, "DC -10 to hear the sounds of battle," I think of noises that would be carried over a great distance and would be unmistakable (ex: Battle cries, swords clashing, swords hitting shields, the sound of armor clashing and clanging about), and we are probably talking about more than two combatants. What I don't picture when I read "sounds of battle" is two guys grappling (unless one yells for help). The sounds of scuffling on the ground and choking someone out, or using short, sharp strikes do not carry very far at all, and would be very mistakable for other things (ex: someone tripping and falling, or a drunk stumbling around an alley). You can even choke someone out standing and bring them to the ground softly, making even less noise than full grappling....

That is probably how the majority of players interpreted the rules prior to the Vigilante Playtest... but then the designers added an ability that explicitly let you ignore the -10 penalty to hear the sounds of combat if you could pull off a "silent takedown" but only if you had this one extremely specific power. We didnt understand the general rule until some 6 years after the game launched when they released the specific rule to trump it.

For what its worth, i agree with you that a house rule for silent take downs is easy to come up with in the existing rules framework. its just that we now know it is a house rule rather than original intent.


Torbyne wrote:
For what its worth, i agree with you that a house rule for silent take downs is easy to come up with in the existing rules framework. its just that we now know it is a house rule rather than original intent.

I would maybe say current intent instead of original intent. It seems like Paizo has a bit of a habit of nerfing 50/50 rules calls immediately before selling a new product containing an option that lets you overcome the nerf. The most recent one that I noticed is the Esoteric Magus getting the "new ability" to use his arcane pool to enhance his unarmed strikes.

Liberty's Edge

Thanks for all the help, folks. It breaks my martial-loving heart that there doesn't seem to be an unambiguous way to do this without spells, but the Warpriest using Fervor to cast Silence is pretty slick.


Ok, so the issue here that everyone is ignoring is that the above characters are essentially level 20 characters who deal with level 1 - 6 enemies the majority of the time.
These characters can "stealth kill" enemies because they are more or less doing 1d4+10d6 nonlethal damage against someone who probably has less HP than the average damage.

Pathfinder is not a good game for handling this. Shadowrun works better for it, but that is mainly because you can specialize your build into being a crazy effective murderer, and be able to switch ammo out with ammo that ignores armor.

/Shrug.

Just get a garrote.

I say this because attacking someone in Shadowrun 5E without them knowing about the attack almost always results in death or unconsciousness, even against prime runners (essentially NPCs built like PCs).


Taku Ooka Nin wrote:
Just get a garrote.

And, by the rules, the DC to notice that someone is being garrote'd is -10. Not that i think that any sane DM gonna do that, but the Stealth/Perception rules are just plain stupid. :p


Metal Sonic wrote:
Taku Ooka Nin wrote:
Just get a garrote.
And, by the rules, the DC to notice that someone is being garrote'd is -10. Not that i think that any sane DM gonna do that, but the Stealth/Perception rules are just plain stupid. :p

Well, you know, when you're being garotted by someone when you know you have friends in the next room you're probably going to slap your hard soled shoes on the ground, not to mention struggled gasps.

The thing that makes these characters is that after they take someone down, they can escape before help shows up.

Pathfinder is built around heroic game play, not super sneaky gameplay. If you want to assassinate or instantly take down people, take a rank in assassin. If the GM wants, he can make make a special non-alignment version of the class that can only knock people out instead of killing them.


DM_Blake wrote:

Arrrrgh!

I hate it when developers, especially JB himself, misquote their own rules as if they don't know what they say. That quote shows that our fearless leader assumes (or assumed at the moment he wrote that) that combat is silent, or at least so silent that the noise you make killing someone is adjudicated by a STEALTH check which is clearly 100% against the line of Stealth that says you cannot use Stealth while attacking. His quote clearly ONLY considers Stealth vs. visual perception (as per his parenthetical inclusion that you need darkness so they cannot see you) - it's as if he clearly forgot that HE rolled Listen and Spot into one Perception skill.

I get your point that "battle" and "combat" might be different. The Battle of the Bulge, the Battle for Iwo Jima, etc. Maybe.

But if that is true then the rulebook gives us NOTHING to gauge this on. NOTHING.

It cannot be a Stealth check per the Stealth rules.

Is hearing a man being killed in combat as hard as "Notice the stench of rotting garbage"? Who knows!
Is hearing a man being killed in combat as hard as "Detect the smell of smoke" Who knows!
Is hearing a man being killed in combat as hard as "Hear the details of a conversation" Who knows!
Is hearing a man being killed in combat as hard as "Notice a visible creature" Who knows!
Is hearing a man being killed in combat as hard as "Determine if food is spoiled" Who knows!
Is hearing a man being killed in combat as hard as "Hear the sound of a creature walking" Who knows!

None of these are even remotely like hearing a man being killed (or grappled) in combat. The only one that is remotely like it happens to be, in fact, almost exactly like it, save for subtle nuances in the definition of "battle".

Given a choice of
A) Nothing at all remotely like it
or
B) Almost exactly like it

Well, that choice is easy for me.

I agree by RAW, and even possibly RAI based on the Vigilante ability quoted above. Like I said, devil's advocate, mostly because I believe it should be possible.

By strict RAW (probably in PFS) the best way to do it without magic would be as a Ninja/Slayer with the Silent Kill feat, or as an Assassin/Master Spy with Death Attack. Or with an Unchained Rogue with the Knockout Blow and Greater Multitalented tricks. NOTE: Not sure if anyone else pointed this out yet but Death Attack and Assassinate are not the same. Assassinate is a kill only ability, Death Attack can paralyze for 1d6 rounds + 1 per level of PrC.

Also, I would say that, by RAW the DC for hearing a grapple take down may start at -10, but that is NOT the final DC of the check unless he has a buddy standing 10'-20' away in the same room. You have to remember walls, doors, distance of separation between the listener/viewer and the sounds/sights. If you are taking a guy out in one room and the next closest guard is 70' away behind a 1' thick stone wall, well the DC goes up by 17 (DC +7). If it's at night you might also have people who are distracted and or asleep which could raise the DC another 5-10 points (DC +12-17). Then think about conditions of the surrounding area; is it a quiet eco prone keep, or a busy town square? This could change the DC by another -2, +2, or +5 depending on situation (DC +10 through +22). And now you have to determine what was actually seen/heard by the person rolling Perception. Be fair... what would you tell a player who heard a similar thing? Maybe you meet the DC and hear a thud and some scraping off in the distance. Now it's time to be fair again... what would that NPC do if that's all he heard? I am not advocating for inaction, nor over reaction. The specific circumstances will be a case by case thing depending on level of training, organization, relationship, etc...

...

Then you have to decide if you are going to give more information based on whether or not the Perception check beats the DC by 5 or more... maybe if the DC is 10 and the Perception check is a 15 or higher the GM will give them some more detail in the sounds. Maybe they actually hear some choking and boots smacking the stone floor? There are no rules for this but it's something to think about.


As far as the idea of Batman or an Assassin taking someone out "stealthily" you also have to remember. In most of those combat scenes, everyone KNEW Batman was there. They just didn't know where he was and they kept losing track of him.

I think it's more true to those scenes to say that Batman had some form of Ranger-like HiPS than to say he was taking people out without anyone around knowing what happened. Functionally what Batman did was use Stealth/HiPS to sneak up on a person, Standard Action (or full attack) from Stealth to take them out, then Move Action (or 5' Step) to disappear back into the shadows. Or a HiPS + Spring Attack combo. This tactic is far easier to reproduce in PF and far more tactically useful in a party-centric game.

A 9th level Assassin (once per day) can ambush with Death Attack, slip into Stealth, then Death Attack another enemy in the very next round without the 3 rounds of study. Then they can disappear back into the shadows and study for 3 rounds while the enemy runs around in panic... that is a far more accurate description of what Batman did in his first attack against the gang in Batman Begins.

The DC of Death Attack at that level is 19+Int Mod at that level. Plus any other DC raising magic/abilities.


OK lets take out this Sounds of Battle DC thing. First off what is a "Battle"

bat·tle
ˈbadl/

noun
noun: battle; plural noun: battles

1.a sustained fight between large, organized armed forces.

verb
verb: battle; 3rd person present: battles; past tense: battled; past participle: battled; gerund or present participle: battling

1.fight or struggle tenaciously to achieve or resist something.

Thats the dictionary definition. First off the noun can be taken out too as this is not a sustained fight but rather a quick jab and hold and we are done. 2nd: It says to fight or Struggle to resist. Since in the surprise round the character is still stealthed and gets his attack in, the target isnt exactly fighting or struggling. therefore the PC's first attack would not be considered "Sounds of Battle". However if he has no way to silence the intended target in the surprise round (by the way im using Surprise Round as a definition for surprising the target, not the rules definition where you only get a move or a standard action), then the target has every chance to shout as soon as the surprise round ends.

Now if it were me. I would either;

a. take Dirty Trick as a combat manuever and propose to the GM that if I beat the targets CMD I jab him in the throat silencing him for 1 round.
b. (the more viable option) Take Grapple as a combat manuever and say that when I grapple him I head lock him instead clamping his mouth shut. and he remains silenced until he breaks whether that be from a failed roll on my end or a successful one on his.

as a GM I would probably say that you could take both. make both rolls against the one target, or I just increase his CMD by half or something, and you are effectively choking him out. Now unfortunately if he has even a 10 con you have to hold him for 10 rounds while he suffocates into unconciousness.

This doesnt really seem like the most viable concept out there but all the power to you.

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