I am making a character for a campaign that is level 14.
In most campaigns I end up making a hard to hit melee character and i'm a mixture of bored with it and unsure how to build something a bit different.
I've done fighter in full plate + tower shield (even went orc to basically never fall when negative and have the extra str offset the tower shield penalties).
And my most recent monstrosity is a Halfling who between daring champion cavalier and a small level dip to help with feats is a near unhitable monstrosity compared to the fighter because thanks to order of the eastern star and fighting defensively (crane style boosted) their AC/Touch/and saves are a bit dumb and I expect the DM plans to destroy them soon.
So getting that out of the way as a result I've tried both walking hunk of metal and the dexterous annoyance. So i'm looking to try something else but i'm having some difficulties.
Generally to be tanky you need some combination of the following:
AC - While i find the forum is a bit anti-AC i find there's a magical spot with AC where you can prettymuch shut down all forms of melee or bare minimum be almost never hit. But unless you focus super hard on it unfortunately I find it quickly becomes nearly worthless.
DR/resistances - When AC fails this helps mitiage.
HP Pool - Important, though falls a bit flat if you have neither of the above (seen many barbarian die because they had no AC to speak of and they thought 140 points of HP would last forever).
My problem right now is without dexterity you need armor, which is less flexible for stacking extra bonuses (aka monk, kensei, nimble bonus from those classes), and outside the nimble bonuses (huzzah mithral medium armor counting as light armor) you end up getting crazy attribute dependent.
We rolled for stats and i got 17,16,13,11,9,8 so i have a lot of room to work with here.
I was thinking magus or something else but i'm finding it difficult to make a character because either a class isn't very shield friendly or else i'm looking at just doing crane style or something similar all over again.
I've been looking at magus either with mindblade (dip 1 fighter to get heavy armor because psychic spells have no spell failure (though nasty concentration checks) or a regular magus as heavy armor is an available feat anyways. I looked at kensei but the archetype while sounding cool on paper seems to fall short.
In all 3 cases generally the AC with +5 armor and the staple ring/amulet combo only seem to just barely break 30+ AC and i had a fighter around the same level was nearing 50 with all the stuff collected by then (though enchanted tower shield + shield focus/greater shield focus was almost 11 points of AC alone).
I'm open to suggestions for something that can fit the role of something durable as many times my group tends to be very squishy and if my character isn't contributing via something like blundering defense or tripping of some sort to try and help keep stuff off the party, when the party has to make a tactical retreat having something that can be a somewhat durable meatshield while the group takes a round or 2 to regroup i've found is incredibly invaluable to a party.
If you want a really high ac try the bloodrager with the destined bloodline and the steelblooded archtype. You get a luck bonus to your ac and saves at 4th level that scales to a plus 5.The fates favored trait adds a plus 1 to all luck bonuses so that's a plus six to ac and saves on top of your full plate and cloak of resistance bonuses. Play a half orc take the feat iron hide for a natural armor bonus then the improved natural armor feat a few times for a pretty high ac and saves. Very tanky imo.
It takes a few levels to really get going, but aberrant bloodrager with a protector tumor familiar can be very tanky. This combo can also have a wide reach to allow you to attack enemies before they reach your allies.
Alchemist can be a very magus-like tank, while also having the protector tumor familiar.
Paladins and warpriests can swift action heal themselves. Combine this with Fey Foundling to really amp up the swift healing.
Synthesist Summoner gets a big effective hitpoint pool and lots of ways to buff itself. It can also boost a large reach and combine it with other effects like reach or push to control the battlefield.
Well, palainds are classic tanks. But how about a different approach to them: Irorian Palains. Besides replacing smite with a more neutral ability, it allows you to add your cha to your dex in order to determine AC when in light or no armor (also, it has a limit of 1 mod added per level- not friendly as a dip)
This means you can hit the max dex of your starting armor with a 14/14 (classic "eh, I need a bit" scores for a paladin). So they can end up being just as tanky as full plate, but they have touch AC rather than flatfooted. This archetype also keeps spells, lay on hands, divine health, etc, which makes it fairly long lasting.
If you want a really high ac try the bloodrager with the destined bloodline and the steelblooded archtype. You get a luck bonus to your ac and saves at 4th level that scales to a plus 5.The fates favored trait adds a plus 1 to all luck bonuses so that's a plus six to ac and saves on top of your full plate and cloak of resistance bonuses. Play a half orc take the feat iron hide for a natural armor bonus then the improved natural armor feat a few times for a pretty high ac and saves. Very tanky imo.
I was half considering that. I had done a Crossblooded Arcane/Destined bloodline with fates favored (big fan of that trait if you're a halfling with the alternate trait, use a jingasa, or if someone in the party has the prayer spell). I had done that build once utilizing the blur with raging from the arcane bloodline along with combat expertise.
I have a lot of ideas for making a character difficult to hit/damage/kill, and they mostly involve combining many small, inexpensive things that you can use a few of or all together. One of my favorite ones though, is really best if the entire party is on board. Does your party have any willingness to adapt their builds in order to use a group tactic?
The group generally doesn't plan together feat-wise. Most use of teamwork feats are when i did a cavalier.
Item-wise what else is there?
I know of Ring/Amulet going from +1 to +5. Dusty rose prism +1 insight. Jingasa +1 luck bonus. So based on the budget 2 of those might be +3, so about +8 total.
Depending on armor/dex looking at +10 from that.
So we're at about 28. Put the armor to +5 33. So outside of adding a shield of some sort i'm at a bit of a loss where else to add in bonuses.
Earth/Water Kineticist is very Tanky, and very different from the builds you listed.
I'll look at that as well. I haven't looked super close at the kineticist for this. Would you suggest the elemental annihilator archetype so the ability to threaten squares and have full BAB is an option or is the loss of the utility wild talents potentially a problem?
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I Typically Push Carl Jr. as my prefered Bloodrager build but I have a 2nd one that might be up your ally.
Human
Str: 17 (+1 @ 8 and +2 Human)= 20, Dex: 13 (+1 @ 12)=14, Con: 16, Int: 8, Wis: 9 (+1 @ 4)= 10, Cha: 11
Traits:
Fate's Favored
Transmuter- Cat's Grace
Feats:
Human: Power attack
1: Fast Healer
Unbreakable Fighter 1: Endurance and Die Hard
3: Raging Vitality
5: Aberrant Tumor (Hedge Hog Protector Archetype...+2 Will Saves!)
7:
7 Bloodline: Combat Reflexes
9: Improved Critical- (reach weapon or High Critical weapon like Falchion)
10 Bloodline: Iron Will (Another +2 to Will Saves)
11: Toughness
13: Raging Brutality
13 Bloodline: Improved Initative
Spells:
1: Enlarge person*, Shield, Spiked Armor, Frost Bite, Ray of Enfeeblement, Magic Missile, Feather Fall
2: See invisibility*, Cat's Grace, Resist Energy, Mirror Image, Ablative Barrier, False Life
3: Displacement*, Vampiric Touch, G. Magic Weapon, Phantom Steed, Heroism
4: Enervation, Monstrous Physique II
Gear:
+1 Furious Spellstoring Adamantine Weapon (Reach or High crit is up to player)
+1 Spell Storing (Main recurring Enemy) Defiant Mithral Full Plate
Jingasa of the Fortunate Solider (+2 Luck AC)
Luckstone
Dusty Rose Prism + Wayfinder (+1 AC, +2 to CMB and CMD)
Cracked Dusty Rose Prism (+2 AC)
Necklace Natural Armor +1
Ring of Protection +1
Cloak of Resistance +2
Belt of Str and Con +2-+4 (dunno how much gold you have)
Headband of Cha +2-+4
Lesser Rod of Extend
Wand of Infernal Healing
1x Scroll of Stone Skin
2x Scroll of Ablative Barrier
1x Oil of Bless Weapon
Robe of the Arcane Heritage- Aberrant (If your DM will rule it works on Bloodragers...the FAQ request is still out on this Item/Class combo)
How this guy is Used:
AC: FUll plate, 14-18 Dex (cat's Grace)+ Magic Items + Shield Spell= Respectable
Fast Healing- Your Bloodrager will have roughly Fast healing 7-8 while raging. Every round your going to Heal damage, Stop Bleeding, and Auto Stabilize. Remember that magical healing heals equal amounts of Non lethal and Lethal damage at the same time.
Tumor Familiar- This guy has Half your huge ass HP. He also gives you +2 to will saves...so its like taking Iron will but it gets BETTER!!!!!....The Protector Archetype allows your familiar to Shield other (as the spell). The familiar while melded to you has Fast Healing 5. Say you take 15 damage....Give 7 to the Familiar and 8 to yourself...Next round fast healing kicks in the Familiar is down 2 HP and you might not be down ANY.
Ablative Barrier- Turns some Damage into non lethal. Mixed with Fast healing it gets even more reach out of fast healing.
Miss Chance- Mirror Image and Displacement are both on your spell list.
Immunities: Being straight Immune to things seems to be what a tank would strive for...here is a List of the Immunities you are going to be gaining.
At 8th level, you become immune to the sickened and nauseated conditions.
At 12th level, your internal anatomy shifts and changes, giving you a 50% chance to negate any critical hit or sneak attack that hits you. The damage is instead rolled normally. (If a Critical gets by this you have jingasa lol)
At 16th level, you are immune to disease, exhaustion, fatigue, and poison, and to the staggered condition.
Damage Reduction: Scrolls of Resinous Skin and stone Skin will help you shore up on DR (If you need/want it)
All in all this guy has Crazy surviviblity. And can put out some very respectable damage.
I like Fruian's build, but would find room for the Long Arm spell. That extra 5-foot reach really plays to your strengths.
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I like Fruian's build, but would find room for the Long Arm spell. That extra 5-foot reach really plays to your strengths.
He gets 5 feet fro Aberrant and has enlarge person. I did not want too much overlap and Like to keep a couple 1st and 2nd spells unused for emergency Spell eating if I get too low.
But if the player wants yes he can change the list to include long arm.
He gets 5 feet fro Aberrant and has enlarge person. I did not want too much overlap and Like to keep a couple 1st and 2nd spells unused for emergency Spell eating if I get too low.
I'm not sure if I'd call it overlap though. They stack wonderfully.
A base character occupies his square and threatens 8.
Add large size, and he occupies 4 squares and threatens 30 squares.
Add aberrant reach and he threatens 48 squares
Add Long Arm and you now threaten 76 squares.
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He gets 5 feet fro Aberrant and has enlarge person. I did not want too much overlap and Like to keep a couple 1st and 2nd spells unused for emergency Spell eating if I get too low.I'm not sure if I'd call it overlap though. They stack wonderfully.
A base character occupies his square and threatens 8.
Add large size, and he occupies 4 squares and threatens 30 squares.
Add aberrant reach and he threatens 48 squares
Add Long Arm and you now threaten 76 squares.
Oh I know your right about it. Many DMs already will get pissed off about your fast healing, immunities, and sheer tankiness.
Threatening 76 Squares is like the nail in your DMs coffer of reasons to hate your PC lol. But it sure is sexy though. And I did leave Level 7 feat open for something like stand still incase the OP wants to control the entire Battlefield from the next room.
He gets 5 feet fro Aberrant and has enlarge person. I did not want too much overlap and Like to keep a couple 1st and 2nd spells unused for emergency Spell eating if I get too low.I'm not sure if I'd call it overlap though. They stack wonderfully.
A base character occupies his square and threatens 8.
Add large size, and he occupies 4 squares and threatens 30 squares.
Add aberrant reach and he threatens 48 squares
Add Long Arm and you now threaten 76 squares.
And if you add lunge and 5' step to that, you can full attack at a distance that many characters struggle to reach with their full move action just to do a single attack afterwards (ie- 30' out).
I'd generally advise against getting polearms when going enlarged. Don't want to end up like a dark souls boss where the safest place to be is right at your ankles.
Being that the character is starting so late, you may want to try a ranger 2 with aberrant bloodrager 12 build. That way you can grab Shield Slam as a combat style without worrying about the two weapon fighting prerequisite, so two handing your shield is a good option. Then you can get a free bull rush with every attack, including all of those AoO you will get.
He gets 5 feet fro Aberrant and has enlarge person. I did not want too much overlap and Like to keep a couple 1st and 2nd spells unused for emergency Spell eating if I get too low.I'm not sure if I'd call it overlap though. They stack wonderfully.
A base character occupies his square and threatens 8.
Add large size, and he occupies 4 squares and threatens 30 squares.
Add aberrant reach and he threatens 48 squares
Add Long Arm and you now threaten 76 squares.And if you add lunge and 5' step to that, you can full attack at a distance that many characters struggle to reach with their full move action just to do a single attack afterwards (ie- 30' out).
I'd generally advise against getting polearms when going enlarged. Don't want to end up like a dark souls boss where the safest place to be is right at your ankles.
That was the death of a abyssal bloodrager my group had once. Had super strength and HP. He got enlarged and a bunch of rogues managed to surround him and destroy him (and he couldn't do anything about it)
The build overall seems interesting. Even without a tumor familiar having just that extra HP pool even eldritch guardian is a viable option.
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He gets 5 feet fro Aberrant and has enlarge person. I did not want too much overlap and Like to keep a couple 1st and 2nd spells unused for emergency Spell eating if I get too low.I'm not sure if I'd call it overlap though. They stack wonderfully.
A base character occupies his square and threatens 8.
Add large size, and he occupies 4 squares and threatens 30 squares.
Add aberrant reach and he threatens 48 squares
Add Long Arm and you now threaten 76 squares.And if you add lunge and 5' step to that, you can full attack at a distance that many characters struggle to reach with their full move action just to do a single attack afterwards (ie- 30' out).
I'd generally advise against getting polearms when going enlarged. Don't want to end up like a dark souls boss where the safest place to be is right at your ankles.
That was the death of a abyssal bloodrager my group had once. Had super strength and HP. He got enlarged and a bunch of rogues managed to surround him and destroy him (and he couldn't do anything about it)
The build overall seems interesting. Even without a tumor familiar having just that extra HP pool even eldritch guardian is a viable option.
The bloodrager did not Believe in Displacement granting 50% concealment and shutting off Sneak attacks/precision completely (since I guess 50% chance to negate wasn't good enough. Unless they didn't have it yet.)
I use Spike Armor spell so I can use armor spikes to stab those kinds of folks. It also is nice against Natural attacks and Grapplers. It also lasts 10 min/level (can be extended with a lesser rod) and Scales with Level.
The bloodrager did not Believe in Displacement granting 50% concealment and shutting off Sneak attacks/precision completely (since I guess 50% chance to negate wasn't good enough. Unless they didn't have it yet.)
I use Spike Armor spell so I can use armor spikes to stab those kinds of folks. It also is nice against Natural attacks and Grapplers. It also lasts 10 min/level (can be extended with a lesser rod) and Scales with Level.
Flanking rogues are just a classic example of "I did not prepare for this" and getting shut down fast. You could easily replace it with some greatsword wielding barbarians and get similar results. The general point is that there is a melee threat (with good DPS at the moment) directly next to you, and you have relatively poor options for dealing with it.
And The problem I have with options like armor spikes that it will never be as good as your big, shiny, well enhanced 2 handed weapon. Armor spikes are light weapons. Your main mechanic is boosting strength. It will just never be very good. At most, it can be used to make a cheeky caster regret trying to cast right next to you. It would not solve actual problem directly threatening you.
The typical answer to a melee threat next to you for a barbarian style character is to beat it up before it beats you. And armor spikes won't do that. And if you want to use your big 2 handed weapon that could do that, you have to spend a move action to back up (which means YOU eat an AoO, and you lose your full attack).
Being medium means you have the advantage of having your reach weapon within the range manageable with a 5' step. That is just the plain and short of it.
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The bloodrager did not Believe in Displacement granting 50% concealment and shutting off Sneak attacks/precision completely (since I guess 50% chance to negate wasn't good enough. Unless they didn't have it yet.)
I use Spike Armor spell so I can use armor spikes to stab those kinds of folks. It also is nice against Natural attacks and Grapplers. It also lasts 10 min/level (can be extended with a lesser rod) and Scales with Level.
Rogues are just a classic example of "I did not prepare for this" and getting shut down fast. You could easily replace it with some greatsword wielding barbarians and get similar results.
And The problem I have with options like armor spikes that it will never be as good as your big, shiny, well enhanced 2 handed weapon. Armor spikes are light weapons. Your main mechanic is boosting strength. It will just never be very good. At most, it can be used to make a cheeky caster regret trying to cast right next to you. It would not solve actual problem directly threatening you.
It gives you a Weapon to go with your AC, Miss chance, Fast healing, (Optional DR), Immunities, and abilities to negate Crits and Sneak attacks.
Sure you can get flanked or double teamed but then you have 3 other party members that should be helping to kill the threat on you. Since you immune to poison its a great time for the Wizard to cloud kill over top of you and let that force them away and also giving you more concealment (if yours goes down or was not up yet).
To be honest they would need to be built pretty specifically to stop you and then you just have to look at your DM and call him a complete dick. If your building a character to handle then many needs of adventuring and handle many types of fights. And he is building encounters strictly to try to kill you and target just you...he is being an a%%##+@ who is playing DM verses Player. And that is a entirely different issue all together.
Edit:
I forgot to add you could also get a permanency stink cloud casted on an item and you can have that item tied to your belt (Or in your Haversack for safe keeping). Buy a pair of Fog Cutting Lenses and you can debuff folks as you move about with the cloud that you are immune to. This can come online by level 8 at the earliest.
Aether gives you a rechargable pool of temp HP.
I wouldn't entirely count Aether's defense for the tank pool (well, more than having toughness, at least).
To get its numbers up, you ahve to spend burn. It is 2 burn per 1 temp hp/hd. You get 0.5 temp hp for every 1 effective hp you give up to burn.
The thing with it is that it is something you can dump burn into without bleeding out as much as other options. That is its main advantage. You can get your elemental overflow without paying as much as other elements.
The kinectist is already kind of a tank, no matter the element- it is a class that only needs Dex and Con, and it doesn't have actual armor restrictions (you just lack proficiency past light- you could easily grab a mithral breastplate via the armor expert trait). The burn mechanic just reduces your tankiness, and aether reduces the rate at which burn does so.
Well, you start with a pool = your level, without taking any burn.
Then, you have the option of taking 1 point of burn (and nonlethal = level) to gain temp hp = 1/2 level. This seems like a net loss of 1/2 level HP (+level-1/2level=-1/2level).
However, the temp HP can regenerate. So let's say this is level 6. You already have 6 temp HP that regenerate between fights. You can take 6 nonlethal, reducing your normal HP pool by 6, for 3 more temp HP, giving you a pool of 9 temp HP. Assuming you get in at least 2 fights during the day, and assuming you take at least 9 damage in each of those fights, and assuming you have time for the pool to recharge between fights, the extra 3 temp hp already made up for the 6 nonlethal you took to gain it in the first place. Any damage past that, and the burn->temp trade comes out ahead. Now, that seems like a lot of assumptions, but they aren't that hard to meet. If you aren't getting in more than 1 fight a day, you're probably in good shape anyway. If you don't get hit for more than 9 damage in a fight, you're again in good shape and don't need to worry about the 6 nonlethal you took. The only questionable assumption is the 9 minute wait between fights, and that doesn't seem like an unreasonable request to make of your teammates.
I had the same worry about the trade off, but someone made the above argument and I was convinced. YMMV, but at the very least, a pool of regenerating temp HP = level isn't something to scoff at. Especially when preventing all the damage from an attack also prevents any other side effects that attack might have carried.
I still view it as a give take- because the temp HP is unaffected by wands of CLW, right?
That means you HAVE to wait for it to regen (or you spend burn, which has its own problems). So it might not be as good when you have a whole dungeon crawl with several fights in the span of a few minutes.
Now in kingmaker? It would be near flawless. So it all depends on your campaign. It is never bad (unlike the fire defense), but it is rarely as directly good for tanking as water/earth.
I'm not sure what you mean about spending burn for regen; the increased regen is just a side effect (or an additional boon) of using burn for extra temp HP. It's not like you have to spend even more burn to also get the increased regen.
Well, you do get a number of temp HP equal to your level when you use burn on an aether talent. So it could be used to get temp hp RIGHT NOW.
You lose effecitve max HP, but it is an option when your current effective HP is the problem. Lower your overall longevity for current effectiveness. Because asking others to waste the effect of their spell buffs is somewhat rude- those spells likely have that spell level because they last for minutes/level or 10 minutes/level.