It really is.
Now on its face it's an awesome class feature: It single handedly enables full attacking with two handed firearms, making the musket master the go-to archetype for fighting with them.
And that's exactly why it's bad. Because it's single handedly the only thing that enables full attacking with a musket, and therefore the only thing that enables functionality for said musket past level 5/7/12.
This means that every single character in the game who wants to use a two handed firearm and plans on getting a second iterative needs a 3 level dip in that archetype, minimum.
Which also means that any gunslinger archetype that conflicts with Musket Master can never use a two handed firearm. Which in and of itself is criminal because frankly an armored juggernaut (gun tank) with some heavy weaponry is thematic as can be.
And relegating twenty-five whole weapons to a single specific archetype is just plain terrible.
Double barrel muskets will enable two attacks, at least for the first round. Any gunslinger that isn't an archetype could use a musket as well as a quick reloading pepperbox. You are allowed to have more than one gun.
You don't need to full attack to have functionality. Frankly I think guns should never be swift or free action reload, and I agree that this archetype is the suck. When spending time crafting all that expensive ammo, you might want to make each shot count, and guns should be slow firing anyway, because that way they aren't Bows+.
Gunslingers at higher levels can take Vital Strike and Improved Vital Strike for extra damage if they can't full attack. The also get a deed Dead Shot, which is like vital strike but with crazy increased accuracy.
Slow firing might be more thematic, but like it or not Pathfinder's design says full attack or bust for high level martials. Vital Strike and Deadshot can't compete in that numbers game and having multiple weapons just isn't economical later in the game when you're dealing with heavily enchanted magic weapons.
There's at least one item which reloads at the cost of a swift action and there's spells as well (tho' usually the latter fails the action economy). It's not quite as bad as you suggest, but bad enough.
Alright so lets take a look at this
here are the times it takes for you to reload:
Full Round action <---- You are here with A musket
Standard Action
Move Action
Swift Action
Free action
You then take the rapid reload feat and suddenly:
Full Round action
Standard Action <---- You are here with A musket
Move Action
Swift Action
Free action
You then take the alchemical cartridges and:
Full Round action
Standard Action
Move Action <---- You are here with A musket
Swift Action
Free action
Then at lv 11 you get lightning reload, which now is:
Full Round action
Standard Action
Move Action
Swift Action <---- You are here with A musket, no feats, no alchemical cartridges
Free action <---- You are here with A musket, and either rapid reload or alchemical cartridges
So where is exactly is the problem? Musket masters just get to reload a musket much faster in the beginning of the game.
As long as you do not pick an archetype that gets rid of lightning reload, then you are golden.
Pathfinder Maps Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Pffft!
Muzzle-loading firearms shouldn't be able to fire more that once a round at best.
So I for one am glad that there are very few ways (apparently only one way) to reload as a free action and get iteratives on that.
Pity this limit doesn't also apply to muzzle-loading sidearms.
But why take 6 levels more than you need to? I'd assume you would stick around for 5 levels to get DEX to damage, but that's an extra 6 levels if you want to be really good at muskets. And you still don't get the full attack deal- at best, you'll shoot twice in a round.
Regular Gunslinger
Full Round Action <- Here at 1st
Standard Action <- Here with alchemical ammo or Rapid Reload
Move Action <- Here with alchemical ammo and Rapid Reload
Swift Action <- Here at 11th, 1/round
Free Action <- Here at 11th with alchemical ammo or Rapid Reload, 1/round
Musket Master
Full Round Action
Standard Action <- Here at 1st, because of Rapid Reload
Move Action <- Here at 3rd, or at 1st with alchemical ammo
Swift Action
Free Action <- Here at 3rd with alchemical ammo
Fernn wrote: Alright so lets take a look at this
here are the times it takes for you to reload:
Full Round action <---- You are here with A musket
Standard Action
Move Action
Swift Action
Free action
You then take the rapid reload feat and suddenly:
Full Round action
Standard Action <---- You are here with A musket
Move Action
Swift Action
Free action
You then take the alchemical cartridges and:
Full Round action
Standard Action
Move Action <---- You are here with A musket
Swift Action
Free action
Then at lv 11 you get lightning reload, which now is:
Full Round action
Standard Action
Move Action
Swift Action <---- You are here with A musket, no feats, no alchemical cartridges
Free action <---- You are here with A musket, and either rapid reload or alchemical cartridges
So where is exactly is the problem? Musket masters just get to reload a musket much faster in the beginning of the game.
As long as you do not pick an archetype that gets rid of lightning reload, then you are golden.
Well, there's the minor detail that between level 6 and 11 you have 2 iterative attacks, but can only fire once/round.
It's also not entirely clear to me that lightning reload works more than once per round: "reload a single barrel of the weapon as a free action each round instead." I'd probably allow it, but expect variation.
Also well with those 5 levels Rapid Shot is a possibility, as is Haste. Not really something I want to put off that long.
My Self wrote: But why take 6 levels more than you need to? I'd assume you would stick around for 5 levels to get DEX to damage, but that's an extra 6 levels if you want to be really good at muskets. And you still don't get the full attack deal- at best, you'll shoot twice in a round.
Regular Gunslinger
Full Round Action <- Here at 1st
Standard Action <- Here with alchemical ammo or Rapid Reload
Move Action <- Here with alchemical ammo and Rapid Reload
Swift Action <- Here at 11th, 1/round
Free Action <- Here at 11th with alchemical ammo or Rapid Reload, 1/round
Musket Master
Full Round Action
Standard Action <- Here at 1st, because of Rapid Reload
Move Action <- Here at 3rd, or at 1st with alchemical ammo
Swift Action
Free Action <- Here at 3rd with alchemical ammo
I guess if you want to start dipping into other full bab classes, thats entirely a possibility.
I thought OP was asking that other gunslinger were SOL all together from using a musket.
As he stated, the possibility of a guntank with a musket seems out of the picture,
as I pointed out, A guntank could still very well go a full musket build.
Is it a normal to thing to dip out of gunslinger after Lv5? If so, that is not something that I am familiar with..
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Wheldrake wrote: Pffft!
Muzzle-loading firearms shouldn't be able to fire more that once a round at best.
So I for one am glad that there are very few ways (apparently only one way) to reload as a free action and get iteratives on that.
Pity this limit doesn't also apply to muzzle-loading sidearms.
Thematically, I agree. The problem is that the mechanics aren't set up for attacks that work that way. You'd need to make the single attacks far more effective so they could keep up with the other classes' iteratives.
Or just not have guns as primary weapons.
Fernn wrote: My Self wrote: But why take 6 levels more than you need to? I'd assume you would stick around for 5 levels to get DEX to damage, but that's an extra 6 levels if you want to be really good at muskets. And you still don't get the full attack deal- at best, you'll shoot twice in a round.
Regular Gunslinger
Full Round Action <- Here at 1st
Standard Action <- Here with alchemical ammo or Rapid Reload
Move Action <- Here with alchemical ammo and Rapid Reload
Swift Action <- Here at 11th, 1/round
Free Action <- Here at 11th with alchemical ammo or Rapid Reload, 1/round
Musket Master
Full Round Action
Standard Action <- Here at 1st, because of Rapid Reload
Move Action <- Here at 3rd, or at 1st with alchemical ammo
Swift Action
Free Action <- Here at 3rd with alchemical ammo
I guess if you want to start dipping into other full bab classes, thats entirely a possibility.
I thought OP was asking that other gunslinger were SOL all together from using a musket.
As he stated, the possibility of a guntank with a musket seems out of the picture,
as I pointed out, A guntank could still very well go a full musket build.
Is it a normal to thing to dip out of gunslinger after Lv5? If so, that is not something that I am familiar with.. After level 5, it takes longer to get useful abilities- evasion and uncanny dodge come online at 15th, you get some nice pseudo-capstones at 19th, and True Grit at 20th is nice, but you're still saddled with 12 so-so levels in between. Most of those 12 are bonus feats or AC boosts, which could be replicated better with Brawler or Fighter. Advanced Weapon Training for the Fighter is also pretty amazing. The Weapon Master Fighter can get all 4 levels of Weapon Training in after a 5-level dip in Musket Master, as well as Advanced Weapon Training several times, to get an effective 6 skills/level. Additionally, you get the heavy armor and tower shields you were looking for.
Lightning Reload is not a satisfactory solution to the problem for the reasons thejeff has already stated. It doesn't come online until you get your third iterative and as written only works once a round. So from 6-11 when other ranged martials are making 2-3 attacks with rapid shot (4 if they're an archer) you're making one. And at 11+ when other martials are making three to four attacks(five for archers) you're making two.
That's just not sustainable. Especially given that it comes online so late.
Wheldrake wrote: Pffft!
Muzzle-loading firearms shouldn't be able to fire more that once a round at best.
So I for one am glad that there are very few ways (apparently only one way) to reload as a free action and get iteratives on that.
Pity this limit doesn't also apply to muzzle-loading sidearms.
Like it or not, Pathfinder's design paradigm for martial characters necessitates full attacks to stay relevant. A weapon that cannot be used more than once per round is, without some special exception, a weapon that people aren't going to use.
And if you don't want people to use guns you should just ban them outright.
swoosh wrote: Lightning Reload is not a satisfactory solution to the problem for the reasons thejeff has already stated. It doesn't come online until you get your third iterative and as written only works once a round. So from 6-11 when other ranged martials are making 2-3 attacks with rapid shot (4 if they're an archer) you're making one. And at 11+ when other martials are making three to four attacks(five for archers) you're making two.
That's just not sustainable. Especially given that it comes online so late.
Wheldrake wrote: Pffft!
Muzzle-loading firearms shouldn't be able to fire more that once a round at best.
So I for one am glad that there are very few ways (apparently only one way) to reload as a free action and get iteratives on that.
Pity this limit doesn't also apply to muzzle-loading sidearms.
Like it or not, Pathfinder's design paradigm for martial characters necessitates full attacks to stay relevant. A weapon that cannot be used more than once per round is, without some special exception, a weapon that people aren't going to use.
And if you don't want people to use guns you should just ban them outright.
Hmm, I wonder if that is why the Dead shot feat was invented. Yeah, you aren't adding your dex mod to every individual attack, but the way I see it is that you are targeting Touch AC, which is 10 times easier than an archer or fighter targeting normal AC.
Dead Shot is nice, but it fails to keep up damage wise later when losing out on multiple instances of damage modifiers really starts to hurt. An eleventh level gunslinger with rapid shot and haste is going to get up to dex*5 to damage, which even with 20 dex completely blows away the damage advantage muskets give.
Of course, the bigger problem here is that you can't reliably dead shot with a musket in the first place. Even with rapid reload and cartridges it still takes a move action to reload the weapon. So you're dead shotting every other round.
swoosh wrote: Dead Shot is nice, but it fails to keep up damage wise later when losing out on multiple instances of damage modifiers really starts to hurt. An eleventh level gunslinger with rapid shot and haste is going to get up to dex*5 to damage, which even with 20 dex completely blows away the damage advantage muskets give.
Of course, the bigger problem here is that you can't reliably dead shot with a musket in the first place. Even with rapid reload and cartridges it still takes a move action to reload the weapon. So you're dead shotting every other round.
Right. It's a full round action. Makes it pretty useless. It would work once you've got Lightning reload, since then you could reload once/round as a swift or free, but by that point you're talking about losing at least 2 sets of static bonuses and more likely 3 or 4. Damage drops way off.
Guns perform much better on iterative attacks than other weapons, mostly because they target touch AC and not regular AC. Losing iteratives with guns hurts a lot more than losing iteratives with other weapons. Unless your GM only has you fight Monks, Fae, and other Gunslingers, your iteratives will still be fairly valuable.
Just popping in to point out that loading a firearm never costs a swift action.
The actual rules wrote: Alchemical cartridges make loading a firearm easier, reducing the time to load a firearm by one step (a full-round action becomes a standard action, a standard action becomes a move action, and a move action becomes a free action)
yeah this archetype is good, 2-handed firearms need the extra attacks
Jiggy wrote: Just popping in to point out that loading a firearm never costs a swift action.
The actual rules wrote: Alchemical cartridges make loading a firearm easier, reducing the time to load a firearm by one step (a full-round action becomes a standard action, a standard action becomes a move action, and a move action becomes a free action)
It does if you're using lightning reload - without cartridges or Rapid Reload. With them & lightning reload, it's a free action, but apparently only one.
swoosh wrote: Lightning Reload is not a satisfactory solution to the problem for the reasons thejeff has already stated. It doesn't come online until you get your third iterative and as written only works once a round. So from 6-11 when other ranged martials are making 2-3 attacks with rapid shot (4 if they're an archer) you're making one. And at 11+ when other martials are making three to four attacks(five for archers) you're making two. Missed this earlier: It's still not twice a round, even with lightning reload.
It's:
1) Fire, Lightning reload, Fire
2) Lightning reload, Fire, Move reload
3) Fire, Lightning reload, Fire
...
3 every two rounds.
Wheldrake wrote: Pffft!
Muzzle-loading firearms shouldn't be able to fire more that once a round at best.
So I for one am glad that there are very few ways (apparently only one way) to reload as a free action and get iteratives on that.
Pity this limit doesn't also apply to muzzle-loading sidearms.
The same could be said for longbows if we are talking about real life at all. In real life you fired 6-8 arrows in one minute which is less than 1 arrow every round. On top of that, the strength required for drawing the heavy weight bow caused a great deal of fatigue. You'll see a lot of video rapidly firing bow shots with 30lb draw short bows... but those shots would barely damage unarmored people let alone monsters or chainmail.
In terms of early firearms, the use of cartridges (~17th century invention) meant 4-6 shots by skilled gunmen per minute (with reports of up to 8) without the fatigue. The gun was not as accurate but was also much easier to learn and much more powerful. I'm not actually sure where the 1-shot-per-minute comes from because canons fired at rates greater than that in the 14th-15th century (with a three man team but still).
The only weapon with a slow firing rate was the crossbow which would fire 6 bolts for every 10 arrows a bow can shoot. Their advantage was in the much greater power in the shot, holding the drawn bolt indefinitely leading to higher accuracy with each shot, and the reduced training time.
Bascially, saying anything but small thrown weapons when talking about iterative ranged attacks is going to be inaccurate compared with reality.
You could see if your DM will let a friendly mage craft you a musket version of this.
A +1 version would be affordable around 6-8th level.
Shadowshooting is now available in Blood of Shadows.
Automatically reloads any ranged projectile weapon immediately after firing as a +1 bonus.
But it offers a DC15+enhancement bonus will save against anyone shot by it once per round. Succeeding on the will save makes the weapon do minimum damage, which hurts a lot, especially for a weapon with a big die like a musket.
swoosh wrote: Shadowshooting is now available in Blood of Shadows.
Automatically reloads any ranged projectile weapon immediately after firing as a +1 bonus.
But it offers a DC15+enhancement bonus will save against anyone shot by it once per round. Succeeding on the will save makes the weapon do minimum damage, which hurts a lot, especially for a weapon with a big die like a musket.
So by the time you can realistically afford a +2 equivalent weapon(7th level), most CR=APL high will enemies will be saving 75% of the time, and every time they save you lose 5.5 average damage off each shot on top of the constant -1 attack/damage "penalty" you take for not getting a +2 weapon.
As your level increases, it gets worse. At level 12, a CR=APL strong willed creature will save 90% of the time against a +3 Shadowshooting weapon (which costs about 30% of 12th level WBL). Even a poor willed creature saves 70% of the time.
Yep, that's kind of crippling. It would only be tolerable if you had some really big source of extra damage. A sneak attacking rogue with greater invisibility might get decent use out of it, but a gunslinger probably won't.
swoosh wrote: Shadowshooting is now available in Blood of Shadows.
Automatically reloads any ranged projectile weapon immediately after firing as a +1 bonus.
But it offers a DC15+enhancement bonus will save against anyone shot by it once per round. Succeeding on the will save makes the weapon do minimum damage, which hurts a lot, especially for a weapon with a big die like a musket.
That's really weird in comparison to the Pistol of Infinite Sky.
Pistol of Infinite Sky, 73300 gp
+5 pistol, infinite ammo, auto reloading, never miss fires
-pistol 1000
-masterwork 300
leaves 72000, the cost of a +6 weapon
Since it is +5, that puts the "infinite ammo, auto reloading, never miss fires" part as a +1 equivalent, without any Will save to cripple it.
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