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Hello! Im in my second game (the first with a Bard) and I've been watching the bardic masterpieces, but there are some questions that i'm not able to find even reading some old threads. Maybe I'm lucky enought and there has been an official response since the old threads even if I've not been able to find it.
- Are Bardic Masterpieces a kind of Bardic Performance or they are another kind of ability which happen to use the same pool?
Some points of the description make me think that are virtually the same, but some points make me feel the opposite.
- Will the Masterpieces reduce their activating time as the Bardic Performance?
I think I've read it somewhere but, at this point I'm not sure if it was misreading, my imagination or I've trully read it.
- The Bardic Performance Rounds are used at the moment of starting the Masterpiece, right?
I'm almost sure of this, but for this "almost" I think I should ask.
- Is possible to mantain a Bardic Masterpiece and a Bardic performance at time without using spells like Exquisite Accompaniment?
I gess it depends if Masterpieces are considered Bardic Performances or not.
- Would a Masterpiece be able to be "cast" throught Exquisite Accompaniment, Virtuoso Performance and/or Shadowbard?
At the moment of asking this I have Vindictive Soliloquy in mind but I gess they all work in the same way.
Bonus question (The Dance of 23 Steps):
Is the penalty to "Combat Manuever Checks" applied on CMB and CMD or just CMB?
If the description was "Combat Manuevers" I would not have any doubt about it but it specifies "Combat Manuever Checks"... and that make me think that only is applied when you try to do it not "resist" them.
Thanks in advance for giving your time.
And finally sorry for my, almost sure, typos and misspelling.
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- Are Bardic Masterpieces a kind of Bardic Performance or they are another kind of ability which happen to use the same pool?
Some points of the description make me think that are virtually the same, but some points make me feel the opposite.
They are bardic performances
- Will the Masterpieces reduce their activating time as the Bardic Performance?
I think I've read it somewhere but, at this point I'm not sure if it was misreading, my imagination or I've trully read it.
No, the time it takes doesn't change
- The Bardic Performance Rounds are used at the moment of starting the Masterpiece, right?
I'm almost sure of this, but for this "almost" I think I should ask.
Yes
- Is possible to maintain a Bardic Masterpiece and a Bardic performance at time without using spells like Exquisite Accompaniment?
I guess it depends if Masterpieces are considered Bardic Performances or not.
thread about it Currently not, but we're hoping to get a FAQ on it.
- Would a Masterpiece be able to be "cast" through Exquisite Accompaniment, Virtuoso Performance and/or Shadowbard?
At the moment of asking this I have Vindictive Soliloquy in mind but I guess they all work in the same way.
if it lasts long enough to do the masterpiece I think yes.
Bonus question (The Dance of 23 Steps):
Is the penalty to "Combat Maneuver Checks" applied on CMB and CMD or just CMB?
If the description was "Combat Maneuvers" I would not have any doubt about it but it specifies "Combat Maneuver Checks"... and that make me think that only is applied when you try to do it not "resist" them.
Just CMB
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thread about it Currently not, but we're hoping to get a FAQ on it.- Is possible to maintain a Bardic Masterpiece and a Bardic performance at time without using spells like Exquisite Accompaniment?
I guess it depends if Masterpieces are considered Bardic Performances or not.
Chess Pwn, would you PLEASE stop saying that the answer is currently no. That is NOT correct.
As that thread shows, the answer is currently "unclear" with cogent arguments for both interpretations.
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It's not unclear, it's asking for a change because people want to do both. But masterpiece are bardic performances and you can't maintain more that one bardic performance at a time.
It makes sense that if they are some kind of Bardic Performance, you can't use both at the time because of the maximum of 1... But in this way I gess it's more usefull to use Inspire Courage than almost any masterpiece.
Making them a thing a part from Bardic Performance, they will be able to use at the same time than Bardic Performance, but not throught the spells that let you use more than one Bardic Performance and those with the need of 1 full round or more will be very hurted.
I'm not sure what option it's worse. I'm still reading the linked post, for sure there is some very good opinions in it.
Thank you so much for your prompt reply and your help!
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It's not unclear, it's asking for a change because people want to do both. But masterpiece are bardic performances and you can't maintain more that one bardic performance at a time.
There are 228 people who have marked it for a FAQ. That is pretty much the definition of unclear.
I know that you think the current text clearly says one thing but many people disagree. When different people read the text differently then it is UNCLEAR. Reasonable people disagree.
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- Are Bardic Masterpieces a kind of Bardic Performance or they are another kind of ability which happen to use the same pool?
They are the same thing. Some people disagree, but they're wrong. :]
"Talented bards can learn or create masterpieces, unusual applications of the bardic performance ability requiring special training."
- Will the Masterpieces reduce their activating time as the Bardic Performance?
Yes for things listed as a standard action;
"Action: This line indicates the type of action performing the masterpiece requires. If it only requires a standard action to activate, being able to activate a bardic performance more quickly (at 7th level, activation is a move action, and at 13th, it becomes a swift action) applies to the masterpiece as well."
- The Bardic Performance Rounds are used at the moment of starting the Masterpiece, right?
Yes, bardic performances and masterpieces with a fixed bardic performance round (BPR) cost have that cost applied immediately at the start of the performance.
- Is possible to mantain a Bardic Masterpiece and a Bardic performance at time without using spells like Exquisite Accompaniment?
Not normally. Some people disagree, but they're wrong. :]
"A bard cannot have more than one bardic performance in effect at one time."
That said, there are other spells, magic items, and even a familiar option which can do this.
- Would a Masterpiece be able to be "cast" throught Exquisite Accompaniment, Virtuoso Performance and/or Shadowbard?
Exquisite accompaniment can maintain a masterpiece, but not initiate one. The other two spells can do both.
It's not unclear, it's asking for a change because people want to do both. But masterpiece are bardic performances and you can't maintain more that one bardic performance at a time.There are 228 people who have marked it for a FAQ. That is pretty much the definition of unclear.
I know that you think the current text clearly says one thing but many people disagree. When different people read the text differently then it is UNCLEAR. Reasonable people disagree.
There are TONS of stuff that people FAQ. Example of choice is Jumping a 10ft pit.
Last FAQ issued was answering if "melee" meant ranged for flanking. One of them before that was Asking if "Making shots from BAB included non-bab?" and before that was "does only a move action really mean only a move action?" and before that "Spellcraft says I can identify it and nothing lowers the DC to identify, is this really true?" Heck one FAQ really was just an Errata request to make a general feat into a combat feat.Lots of people marking things for FAQs that aren't unclear, they just thought that it should be different and wanted the PDT to look at it again and make sure. And I feel the most support for saying they aren't the same was when JJ posted that they were different, but that is negated because he took it back later.
And I feel the most support for saying they aren't the same was when JJ posted that they were different, but that is negated because he took it back later.Which is the whole reason we want it revisited and corrected. His revision took the point/purpose right out of the wonderful, new innovation of Bardic Masterpieces. Most are nearly useless due to JJ's revision and it basically nerfs the Bard in a tragic manner.
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And I feel the most support for saying they aren't the same was when JJ posted that they were different, but that is negated because he took it back later.Which is the whole reason we want it revisited and corrected. His revision took the point/purpose right out of the wonderful, new innovation of Bardic Masterpieces. Most are nearly useless due to JJ's revision and it basically nerfs the Bard in a tragic manner.
JJ is NOT a rules guy (by his own repeated statement). His opinions on rules are just that, opinions. They should be granted exactly as much weight as you'd give to anybody else's opionions
right, but I feel the only support people state for why one could do both was cause JJ said you could. I don't believe I've seen an argument that you can use both other than that.
Reading the first two pages of that thread I still only see people saying they HOPE you can do both, That you should or they're useless cause inspire courage is so much better, That they hope a FAQ changes this, And that in real life you can play guitar and sing at the same time.
The closest thing to an attempt to use rules to support that they are different was Zaister's post on page one.
yeah, so if you know or see any posts in there for reasons why they are different please point them out.
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right, but I feel the only support people state for why one could do both was cause JJ said you could. I don't believe I've seen an argument that you can use both other than that.
Heck, I never believed that JJ really said you could.
He was asked something like, 'Is it A, or is it B' and he answered "Yes". If that "Yes" was to the second question ('is it B') then he was saying you CAN'T do a bardic performance and a masterpiece at the same time.
right, but I feel the only support people state for why one could do both was cause JJ said you could. I don't believe I've seen an argument that you can use both other than that.Heck, I never believed that JJ really said you could.
He was asked something like, 'Is it A, or is it B' and he answered "Yes". If that "Yes" was to the second question ('is it B') then he was saying you CAN'T do a bardic performance and a masterpiece at the same time.
That's why in his second post when someone double checked he said that you can't have both at the same time.
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Reading the first two pages of that thread I still only see people saying they HOPE you can do both,
We are seeing very different things, then. In the very first post I see an argument counter to your position. Within the first 20 or so posts CBD, Zaister, claud, all seem to be disagreeing with your interpretation.
I stopped looking at that point.
I am NOT going to rehash the arguments.
The issue is unclear.