Rogue ----> Unchained rogue


Advice


I'm running a campaign, and I have a player who wants to repec his 6th level rogue to an Unchained rogue.

How much different are these classes?
Would it be game-breaking?
Should I let him do it?


The unchained rogue is definitely better in combat, but still not good enough to be game breaking. Since he's probably kind of frustrated with the combat capabilities of his current rogue, by all means, let him do it.


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1. Not very different. The Unchained Rogue gets -

a. free finesse and free Dexterity-to-damage,

b. his sneak attack isn't turned off by concealment or cover except total,

c. he gets some nice skill tricks,

d. he gets a different list of rogue talents, take this into account because some older rogue talents are illegal,

e. he gets an amazing debuff that he applies on sneak attacks that can help with his otherwise disgusting AC and accuracy.

2. It would not.

3. Yes, in a heartbeat. Core Rogues have terrible defenses and accuracy and nothing to show for it. Unchained Rogues get a nice debuff and more stable damage, making for a more complete class. He'll be stronger for sure, but he shouldn't be stronger than, say, a Barbarian.

Scarab Sages

Yes. Do it.


Honestly, the only thing that is keeping me from doing it is having all of my other players suddenly wanting to rebuild their characters.


The worst thing that can happen to a game is players playing characters they dont want to.

So Im all for people trying out new stuff. Just make sure they dont take game time to do it. Make them do that stuff away from the table.

Preferably enact the changes when the action in the game has died down or the party is experiencing some downtime.


It's not much of a rebuild, it's a straight upgrade. Weapon Finesse and any Dex-to-damage can be retrained, but that's about it.


I had my rogue respec into unchained. As far as I'm concerned the core rogue doesn't exist and isn't an option at my table. As for the other players if they are playing a class that was overhauled in Unchained. I would let them respec, short of that. I'd say by 6th level you are in it for the long haul. But that is just me. You are free to do whatever.


Building a Rogue from the start with Unchained format works a heck of a lot better than trying to adapt one later.

Rogue Unchained is very respectable, though it's still a really challenging class to play and if GM doesn't make particularly varied mobs and circumstance. Like a lack of casters, which Rogues are usually really good at dealing with.

GM's would do well stratifying engagements with a front-line that Fighter/Barbarian type can deal with then a backfield of dex-based enemies such as caster/archers who would be especially vulnerable to being sneak attacked.

Debilitating Strike is EXCELLENT, taking away 5ft steps, you can hit caster/archer and they can't just 5ft step away and hit. Take that provoke to trip them.

Though I still really really REALLY recommend that Rogues get a Sipping Jacket and load it up with a Potion of Vanish. Also, when your group gets to level 7, get Wizard to cast Greater Invisibility on you to keep on attacking even and not lose invisibility.


I would definitely let the player respec to an Unchained Rogue. A lot of people don't even think the Unchained Rogue went far enough since there are plenty of spells and abilities that prevent a rogue from getting sneak attack. That wouldn't be so bad but it neuters the rogue in terms of damage.

Basically yeah, the Unchained rogue works fine and doesn't break the game. It just adds a few extra things that the rogue needed like being able to sneak attack targets with partial concealment (seriously, a human core rogue couldn't sneak attack someone in a dimly lit alley!). Many rogue talents that existed for the core rogue aren't allowed for the Unchained rogue but it's an easy and common houserule to allow them anyway if only because rogue talents are generally fairly tame in terms of power.


Jack of Dust wrote:
... but it's an easy and common houserule to allow them anyway if only because rogue talents are generally fairly lame in terms of power.

Fixed it for you.

Grand Lodge

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TyroAmberhelm wrote:

I'm running a campaign, and I have a player who wants to repec his 6th level rogue to an Unchained rogue.

How much different are these classes?
Would it be game-breaking?
Should I let him do it?

LET HIM...100%

Core rogue is the WEAKEST class a PC can choose.

Unchained Rogue makes the Rogue playable. You would be screwing this player by not letting him take it.

Just let him Respec and re adjust his feats. There is no way a Rogue Unchained or otherwise can break a game....NEVER....that kind of power is out of his reach.


My Self wrote:
Jack of Dust wrote:
... but it's an easy and common houserule to allow them anyway if only because rogue talents are generally fairly lame in terms of power.
Fixed it for you.

Oh I agree, I was just being polite. ;)


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TyroAmberhelm wrote:
Honestly, the only thing that is keeping me from doing it is having all of my other players suddenly wanting to rebuild their characters.

If everybody got to rebuild their characters at level 6, would that really be so bad? I mean, what value is there in making people stick with a feat or an archetype that they regret taking? Like if you told the party "so-and-so is switching from rogue to unchained rogue, so if any of you guys want to retrain your feats or optional class features, go ahead (just run your plan past me first)" that wouldn't ruin the game or anything.

I mean, if you're playing a game where someone voluntarily decided to play a chained rogue, we're probably not talking about a pack of really hardcore pathfinder optimizers to begin with (don't get me wrong, I like the idea of rogues, but other classes do "rogue" better than the core rogue), so someone else probably wishes they had chosen something else at some level too.


PossibleCabbage wrote:
TyroAmberhelm wrote:
Honestly, the only thing that is keeping me from doing it is having all of my other players suddenly wanting to rebuild their characters.

If everybody got to rebuild their characters at level 6, would that really be so bad? I mean, what value is there in making people stick with a feat or an archetype that they regret taking? Like if you told the party "so-and-so is switching from rogue to unchained rogue, so if any of you guys want to retrain your feats or optional class features, go ahead (just run your plan past me first)" that wouldn't ruin the game or anything.

I mean, if you're playing a game where someone voluntarily decided to play a chained rogue, we're probably not talking about a pack of really hardcore pathfinder optimizers to begin with (don't get me wrong, I like the idea of rogues, but other classes do "rogue" better than the core rogue), so someone else probably wishes they had chosen something else at some level too.

Characters that started out as first level and leveled to 6 are vastly different from character that are generated at 6th level. Not saying one or the other is better, just different. As a GM I prefer the former and rarely allow a complete overhaul. As to the original question, I would have tried to talk the player out of playing a core rogue to begin with, and would be very excited that they wanted to switch.


Unchained rogue is a straight upgrade of core rogue. It doesn't take away any abilities, just adds them, and upgrades existing ones. Let him do it unless the rest of the party is so unoptimized as to be as weak as a core rogue.


Jodokai wrote:
Characters that started out as first level and leveled to 6 are vastly different from character that are generated at 6th level. Not saying one or the other is better, just different. As a GM I prefer the former and rarely allow a complete overhaul. As to the original question, I would have tried to talk the player out of playing a core rogue to begin with, and would be very excited that they wanted to switch.

I generally find the biggest difference between "leveling to 6" and "starting at 6" to be gear. People who know what they're doing often plan out their builds to "come online" at a later level at the expense of being weaker than they could be until they get the right assemblage of powers. You can get away with this because the first handful of levels are generally pretty gentle. Sure, the OP's players might not be doing that, but letting them partially rebuild wouldn't be terribly different than if they had.

I'd say since the one player is switching from rogue to unchained rogue, it would be fair to let players add/subtract an archetype *or* retrain one feat (they're level 6, so that's potentially 1/3 of their feats.) Not a complete rebuild, but just a tweak would be justifiable and fair.


DO IT! Chained rogue is horrible.

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