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Multishot Crossbowman

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Hey guys and girls,
if i double this post i am sorry, i am not sure if my last try to submit it, succeeded or not, because i cant find it, so here once more:

I play a lvl 5 Crossbowman-Ifrit and the idea is to play with rapid shot, high bab, and crossbow mastery to get as many shots per round as possible (a simple bowman, but crossbows have more style then bows imo :D). The thing is i have a pretty good idea, which feats i wanna take, the problem is i have no idea which order would be the best.
The feats i have:

Point-Blank Shot // Rapid Reload(Heavy C.) // Rapid Shot //
Crossbow Mastery // Precise Shot // Deadly Aim

the feats i want to get (they would fill until lvl 17, and mounted archery i'd like to have, because we have a warpriest on a chariot, who would take me on a ride ... :D)

Weapon Focus 1+2 // Weapon Specialization 1+2 // Clustered Shots //
Penetrating Strike 1+2 // Improved Critical // Critical Focus //
Mounted Combat -> Mounted Archery // Impact Critical Shot

My thoughts included:
Lv. 6 Clustered Shots
Lv. 8 Improved Critical
Lv.12 Penetrating Strike
Lv.16 Greater Penetrating Strike

These feats are essential in my opinion and i should take them as early as possible.

About Critical Focus: I dont know if i should even take it because in my opinion it might be more useful to get Weapon Focus 1+2 first and on lvl 20 (i know its still a long way to go) i succeed in crit confirmation anyway.

Mounted Archery would just be a "nice to have" because battle would be a lot of fun with the war priest.

If u have any advice, tipps about other feats which should be mentioned i am happy to hear from u.
Thank you for any advice in advance :)

First question - have you considered a Bolt Ace Gunslinger? I found it to be much more fun than my Crossbowman.

Well, i am pretty new in the game, and didnt read through every class, archetype and so on. So i decided quickly on a crossbowman. The things i heard in my group about gunslinger was kobold gunslinger in 1st place who does much to much dmg on much to low attack rolls. So no i didnt consider anything from the gunslinger. but i didnt expect a class called gunslinger to work with a crossbow too :P
Silver Crusade

The gunslinger is pretty weird in that the best version of it is Bolt Ace, which works with crossbows. It's also weird in the fact that the entire class's best features are obtained in the first 5 levels, meaning generally you should multiclass out of it after 5th level.

You'll probably be doing a lot more damage going bolt ace, although it won't really help you put more bolts in the air. What it will do is add your dex damage to all of those bolts as well as let you use some fun exotic crossbows (launching is a fave of mine), which actually makes you slightly more versatile.
N. Jolly wrote:
The gunslinger is pretty weird in that the best version of it is Bolt Ace, which works with crossbows. It's also weird in the fact that the entire class's best features are obtained in the first 5 levels, meaning generally you should multiclass out of it after 5th level.

Can we please stop repeating this last part like parrots?

Multiclassing out of it is only good for damage, which is not a concern for Gunslingers. Staying with the class gets you a ton of defensive features that are very useful and probably better altogether in the long run than any multiclassing.

In the case of the Bolt Ace, I'm particularly fond of Pinning Shot, Vigilant Shooter, Distracting Shot (because screw you, monks), and Bleeding Wound is amazing utility to handle casters and Evasive is dreamy.

Gunslingers are commonly dumped on due to guns hitting against touch armor class in the first range increment.
Crossbows don't get that feature naturally and inherit none of the build in limiters guns have either. (like that whole chance of blowing up on a string of bad rolls.)

Bolt ace gunslinger has some very fun tricks to it. there is enough in the class to encourage sticking with it but there are also some fun multiclass options with 5 levels of the class as a starting point.

the best break point for the class is L5, with dexterity and wisdom as important scores (to hit and grit points) it also combines very well with a Warpriest. Buffs like Divine favor are significantly more potent in the hands of a ranged character that can output more attacks in a round.

Raw damage wise though it is very hard to get much better than a bolt ace due to its 5th level ability increasing the critical hit modifier of their chosen weapon by one. (19-20 X3)

It can also do some rather horrible things with the feat Empty quiver flexibility while it does add yet more feats to the already overtaxed ranged combat list it permits you to use all your ranged combat feats in melee.
Also you get to add dex to damage, point blank shot and deadly aim to a melee attack of all things.
Silver Crusade
Secret Wizard wrote:

Can we please stop repeating this last part like parrots?

Multiclassing out of it is only good for damage, which is not a concern for Gunslingers. Staying with the class gets you a ton of defensive features that are very useful and probably better altogether in the long run than any multiclassing.

In the case of the Bolt Ace, I'm particularly fond of Pinning Shot, Vigilant Shooter, Distracting Shot (because screw you, monks), and Bleeding Wound is amazing utility to handle casters and Evasive is dreamy.

Since I was one of the first people saying it, I don't really see it as parroting. I also stand by it.

Pinning is okay, vigilant is okay at best, distracting is pretty meh for its level, and bleeding wounds aren't really that impressive. As for evasion, buy a ring late game.

Multiclassing out to monk also has the benefit of some nice save bonuses too, so there are other benefits than just damage.

Since they're talking about putting lots of bolts in the air, I'm assuming damage is pretty important to them.

Also to discuss the feat selection above, after you get clustered shots, penetrating strike is just overkill. One application of DR against 3-5 shots won't prove valuable enough to continue using resources, especially when you get a high enough magic crossbow to cut through most DR.

I'll concede that BA 6+ gets some kind of interesting stuff, but I personally don't think it's worth staying in the class to get it. I'd read over the abilities Secret Wizard brought up, figure out for yourself if you think they're worth it. If so, keep taking BA levels. If not, well at this point I really think I should include a "post BA/GS" section to my guide.

I didnt know u can get DR-penetrating upgrades to ur weapon, thats a good info. Thank you.

Furthermore crossbowmen DO get dex to their dmg with greater deadshot.

I dont want to multiclass in general, because its my first run and i think mulitclassing should be thought over on lvl 1, because it needs much knowledge if i got it right.

is there an upgrade, or are there items which increase ur attack bonus too? I think deadly aim is great, because of the great dmg buff, especially on 3 or 4 - 6shots, but its attack malus is pretty strong, too. Which means i end up hitting only on 10+ with the second, and 15+ with 3rd shot, going on decreasing.

Much as it looks like it no, crossbowmen only get dex to damage in a painfully limited function.
Short version, you can't ready a full round action. You will never be able to make a full attack in combination with Deadshot.

Greater deadshot
At 11th level, when a crossbowman attacks with a crossbow as a readied action, he may add his Dexterity bonus (minimum +1) on his damage roll.

Ready

The ready action lets you prepare to take an action later, after your turn is over but before your next one has begun. Readying is a standard action. It does not provoke an attack of opportunity (though the action that you ready might do so).

Readying an Action

You can ready a standard action, a move action, a swift action, or a free action. To do so, specify the action you will take and the conditions under which you will take it. Then, anytime before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition. The action occurs just before the action that triggers it. If the triggered action is part of another character's activities, you interrupt the other character. Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action. Your initiative result changes. For the rest of the encounter, your initiative result is the count on which you took the readied action, and you act immediately ahead of the character whose action triggered your readied action.

You can take a 5-foot step as part of your readied action, but only if you don't otherwise move any distance during the round.

Initiative Consequences of Readying

Your initiative result becomes the count on which you took the readied action. If you come to your next action and have not yet performed your readied action, you don't get to take the readied action (though you can ready the same action again). If you take your readied action in the next round, before your regular turn comes up, your initiative count rises to that new point in the order of battle, and you do not get your regular action that round.

Overwatch style from the Weapon Master's Handbook does allow for more efficient readying of actions. That being said I would personally go with a Bolt Ace rather than a Crossbowman even if I was set on not multiclassing.

with other words, the crossbowman is either a situational functioning reacting charakter, or half (feels like it) of his class feats are useless o.o

and the way i want to build him as ranged damage dealer doesnt work out.

Yeah, I'd say.

What about about a regular archer though? Fighters make for the best archers out there, particularly with Weapon Master's Handbook options.

yup seems like i will change ma charakter then. thank you guys for answering :)

While I have used crossbows I usually switch to a Bow if I can. If you want to be a master of a crossbow stick with a fighter. Here's why, feats, feats and more feats. Yes some of the tricks of the Bolt Ace are nice but I'd rather have feats then tricks. You need and want feats and a fighter is the way to go. By fifth level fighter you have three extra feats that you wouldn't get with a Bolt Ace and you get weapons and armor training as well.
Those feats make a difference since most classes are feat intensive and you will need more since you are using a weapon that requires them. Crossbows are not a bad weapon but to use them well they do require at least three feats. Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, and Rapid Reload. Now assuming you are a human you will be third level before you have just these three. There are two more feats that when taken will allow you to fire and reload without attacks of opportunity. Now you are seventh before you have them. That is five feats that you could have used to taken on other feats to improve your character in other areas.
While I briefly mentioned the armor and weapons training both of those are extremely useful. Armor training will make a difference on what you wear. Third level you can wear medium armor and move at full speed. Your dex probably being your best stat will be higher then most medium armor's without training. At seventh level fighter you can move full speed in heavy armor and depending on your dex wear heavy armor with a high dex. This is before you spend money on magical armor. Mithral is a beautiful thing for armor except the price tag for medium and heavy armor gets painfully expensive.

The main draw for Bolt Ace is that along with all of those tricks you also get to add dexterity to damage (you gain it a level 5 which is why people suggest multiclassing out at that level) to your shots which is usually upwards of +5 to damage per shot and that makes a huge difference in the longrun especially when you get iterative attacks. When you take into account that many of those "tricks" actually duplicate feats, for example being able to reload a crossbow with no attack of opportunity which comes right at level 1. Being able to shoot a crossbow without attacks of opportunity comes at level 11. I will grant being able to wear heavy armour with Armour Training is nice but it's by no means the end of the world if you can't. You even have Nimble to make up the difference. Armour Class is simply used to stop the iterative attacks at higher levels so either way I would just keep a Potion of Displacement for rainy days at higher levels. Since you don't want to multiclass, I would suggest going with the Bolt Ace for the extra damage. The Bolt Ace is by no means perfect but that's why others have suggested multiclassing. If you absolutely had to pick one though? I would go with the Bolt Ace if only for the greater damage.

Crossbows suck as a damage dealing weapon. Except if you take BoltAce 5. Then they are on par with Bows. You need a stat-to-damage. Bows have STR through Komposite-Bows. Crossbows can get DEX-to-damage via a class ability.

This archetype alone makes Crossbows viable in PCs hands, instead of just a weapon the local peasant-militia uses, like pitchforks and clubs.

With BoltAce 5 you can play your desired build and be a viable contributor to the groups success. You do not need to switch to bows if you wanted to play a Crossbowman in the 1st place. Just have 5 levels of BoltAce in your character. Then you can keep on going in BoltAce, or switch. But this is all just flavor.

When you say "Crossbowman" do you mean the specific fighter archetype "Crossbowman"? If it's possible to retroactively not take that, I would advise doing so. The Weapon Master with a specialization in Crossbows is a better Crossbow fighter than the "Crossbowman." The big issue is that you give up weapon training for ersatz weapon training, and ersatz weapoin training doesn't let you take AWT options (even versatile training shines for crossbow fighters giving you max ranks in stealth and perception, letting you re-spend those skill points.)

You don't have to be a bolt ace if you want to be good at crossbows, but the "crossbowman" archetype was never strong to begin with, and there are things that are better than it at what it does now.

Fighter Weapon training gives you a +1 to hit and Dmg with preferred weapon group you just take Crossbows. Not quite the Dex to Dmg but close.
The Bolt Ace isn't bad but I'd rather go for the extra feats. The Vigilent deed states must have Grit. Two feats after taking the first three I suggested you can do the same thing without having to worry about Grit or attacks of opportunity. The ability to target touch AC is nice but in this case go straight Gunslinger and skip the Crossbow altogether.
With a fighter you can get Weapon Focus and improved versions along with Weapons specialization and all improved versions. Between both your bonuses to Dmg not only stack but you will also hit more often having bonuses to hit which against some creatures every little bit helps.
One suggestion which in the right situation make your damage spike. Take a few levels of Rogue. The sneak attack Dmg now affects almost everything. Thirty feet and from flanking or surprise requirement but depending on your theme and build easy enough to do.

Well the OP said already that he didn't want to multiclass so I think that's off the table, otherwise I would recommend going with just five levels in Bolt Ace. I'm not sure if the OP is open to using a different weapon either or lots of people would be recommending Archers. The Vigilant deed does require holding on to atleast 1 point of Grit but you regain Grit by scoring Critical Hits or landing a killing blow with a Crossbow. Note that the killing blow part doesn't have a hit dice restriction like the regular Gunslinger does making Grit easy to regain. Weapon Training is helpful for the attack rolls but the Damage doesn't come close in the long run. Starting off a Bolt Ace will have either a +4 or +5 Dexterity modifier and will only increase significantly beyond that thanks to Ability Score increases from leveling and Magic Belts. If you do go with a fighter though, you should probably go with a fighter that doesn't give up Weapon Training so you can take Advanced Weapon Training.
Jack of Dust wrote:
If you do go with a fighter though, you should probably go with a fighter that doesn't give up Weapon Training so you can take Advanced Weapon Training.

And wear Gloves of Dueling for another +2/+2.

Wear Gloves of Dueling for another +2/+2.
No, no wear Bracers of Falcon's aim they were made for ranged specialists. They are perfect working with both bows and crossbows.
Will he be allowing Prestige Classes?
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