I have a gestalt game coming up tomorrow and have no idea if the build I want to make is actually going to work. I'd like advice on possible feats and just the general playability of such a character.
Character in question is a Spellblade Bladebound Kensai Magus|Flowing Monk 3. The GM is allowing me to use the Astomoi from Bestiary 5 and my stats are: 10,16,10,18,16,8 in that order down the line.
Thank you for your time.
It's hard to give real specific feedback to a very general question, but here's some general advice:
magus/monk isn't a great combo. there's a lot of places they don't stack well (both 3/4 BAB, d8 hp; both take additional penalties to hit when they use extra attacks; they rely primarily on separate stats); I'm guessing you're going for a primarily defensive build and there is some synergy there (like stacking Int and Wis both to AC), but you're so MAD that you have terrible Con (which is rough in a defensive build) and Str (which will force you to spend a bunch of your precious feats to get Dex to damage if you want decent damage output).
an unchained monk can't take the flowing monk archetype but would solve a couple of problems- they get full BAB and d10 hp and don't take additional penalties to hit when they flurry. It would still be pretty MAD though.
depending on what you're actually trying to accomplish, there is also a magus archetype called Esoteric that gives you some monk stuff... you could pair that with something like slayer to get full BAB, d10 hp, a bunch of extra skills, and studied target to help offset the spell combat penalty?
Or if the goal is more of an armorless swordsman, a kensai/inspired blade (swashbuckler) might be a better fit? Or maybe a swashbuckler/enlightened paladin (who could still wear light armor effectively)?
I was shooting for a defensive build with the ability to deal damage. The combo, while MAD is the best way I was able to find while keeping any semblance of spellcasting. So basically I was wanting a Spellcaster who can run in with a sword and not be penalized for doing so. The other vein is occultist, but I'm not sure it's any better.
I was shooting for a defensive build with the ability to deal damage. The combo, while MAD is the best way I was able to find while keeping any semblance of spellcasting. So basically I was wanting a Spellcaster who can run in with a sword and not be penalized for doing so. The other vein is occultist, but I'm not sure it's any better.
Go Transmuter/Bladebound Kensai.
Unlike the wizard/monk, he can act as both a full caster and full melee in the same round.
The above are right that you're not using the Gestalt rules to maximum effect on some of the base stuff. However, I think your character, as is, will be sickeningly powerful - especially with Ki Focus on your weapon eventually. The class abilities synergize so well, both defensively and offensively. I'd personally suggest nudging your Int to 16, and spend the extra to get 12 Str/Con. 19 AC/Touch base - nice! Enjoy!
I would think about going with Brawler instead of flowing monk. Not as great of defense, but honestly I think you will be fine there without it, and it does buff it a little. It will greatly increase your offense though, both through higher BAB and the ability swap in feats. Being able to grab the disarm, grapple or trip lines as needed when facing the right opponents without a permanent investment is huge.
|
If you can tweak your stats at all and really want to maximize the oomph your gesalt gives you as an arcane caster/monk - I'd suggest going Unchained Monk / Empyreal Sorcerer. The Empyreal Sorcerer casts off of Wisdom - you get full BAB - all good saves - d10 HD.
Plus - if you go unarmed you sort of get one of the best parts of Magus - you can cast touch spells and then go punch people with them.
Though self-buffing combos plenty well with using a temple sword or some such. Take Mage Armor & Shield for a level 1 AC of 22-25!
see, I think you're already too defensively built... when you crank your AC and have defensive abilities like the flowing monk anything with any intelligence at all will very quickly stop attacking you to focus on softer targets, especially when you don't deal that much damage either. So unless you can schedule every fight for a 5' wide hallway where you're first in line you'll end up spending a lot of time being ignored while enemies kill your friends.
If what you want is "a spellcaster that can run in with a sword and not be penalized" I think there are better options. Slayer/Wizard has all good saves, full BAB, tons of skills, full casting (instead of 6 levels like a magus), etc; it would clearly be a less defensive build but would probable be better overall. Slayer/Witch has less spell selection but hexes are basically an unlimited resources if you expect longer adventuring days. Enlightened Paladin/Sorcerer synergizes slightly less well but would be pretty potent too. And, the already mentioned unchained monk/empyreal sorcerer is in this vein too.
If you really want to be able to cast and attack in the same round you could start out kensai/blade adept arcanist for 6 levels (to pick up broad study) and then switch to a full BAB class on the magus side. Or, if you're satisfied with only 6 level casting, the inspired blade/magus is probably better than the monk- you'll be less MAD but still have decent standard defenses (light armor, nimble; mirror image, blur, etc; all good saves, charmed life) and parry and riposte, and you're offense would be a bunch better (qualify for fencing grace at first level and precise strike comes online at 3rd).
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
see, I think you're already too defensively built... when you crank your AC and have defensive abilities like the flowing monk anything with any intelligence at all will very quickly stop attacking you to focus on softer targets, especially when you don't deal that much damage either.
The magus side of a gestalt can deal enough damage to keep most opponents interested.
The magus side of a gestalt can deal enough damage to keep most opponents interested.
With 10 Str and nothing to add Dex to damage even, that's only true if you get to nova... If you have short adventuring days that might be okay but if your GM expects gestalt characters to be able to handle more encounters/day you may find yourself in trouble. (And stacking bladebound, which reduces your arcane pool, and kensai, which reduces spells/day, reduces the number of combats/day you can nova).
Arguably, the bigger issue is that with only medium BAB and a penalty to hit from spell combat you may have trouble reliably hitting a lot of targets that are appropriate for your power level... all the arcane pool and spell damage in the world doesn't do any good if your attacks miss.
The magus side of a gestalt can deal enough damage to keep most opponents interested.With 10 Str and nothing to add Dex to damage even, that's only true if you get to nova... If you have short adventuring days that might be okay but if your GM expects gestalt characters to be able to handle more encounters/day you may find yourself in trouble. (And stacking bladebound, which reduces your arcane pool, and kensai, which reduces spells/day, reduces the number of combats/day you can nova).
Arguably, the bigger issue is that with only medium BAB and a penalty to hit from spell combat you may have trouble reliably hitting a lot of targets that are appropriate for your power level... all the arcane pool and spell damage in the world doesn't do any good if your attacks miss.
Given the OP's listed stats: a human kensai can add Dex to damage at 1st level, apply racial bonus to Dex for an 18.
Using his arcane pool to enhance his weapon, at first level, the magus is looking at:
+1 rapier +6 (1d6+5/18-20/x2) - roughly the same accuracy as a fighter with weapon focus.
At 5th level:
+3 keen rapier +9/+9 (1d6+9/15-20/x2) - assuming spell combat and no enhancement bonus to Dex.
Reduce Person is an option at 1st level, giving +2 to-hit. Cat's Grace becomes an option at 3rd if gestalting with wizard, 4th otherwise.
The bladebound kensai has enough tricks to increase to-hit that accuracy is seldom a problem. If anything, my mid-level they will be more accurate than many full-BaB classes when necessary.
If you're not devoted to divine caster, you could go sorcerer//overwhelming soul kineticist. Overwhelming soul archtype makes you SAD and with a kinny focus on kinetic blade you got your melee weapon while also being a rather beefy sorc.
You get:
All good saves
d8 sorc
All day blasting from kinny so you can focus on support spells from sorc
Dex/Cha SAD
Downsides:
Still 3/4 BAB (getting a touch blast can help this)
Need to minimize arcane spell failure if you want your light armor
Given the OP's listed stats: a human kensai can add Dex to damage at 1st level, apply racial bonus to Dex for an 18.
He's not a human and I believe those stats included racial adjustments. Also, when able to use spells and arcane pool a standard magus can get their attack bonus higher than some standard full BAB classes but the point I was trying to make is that standard classes shouldn't be the basis of comparison in gestalt and a magus that starts with a full BAB will obviously out perform one who still has 3/4.
|
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
|
The magus side of a gestalt can deal enough damage to keep most opponents interested.With 10 Str and nothing to add Dex to damage even, that's only true if you get to nova...
That's why you have knowledge checks. You can easily switch damage types on a Magus, you have spells with no saving throw (e.g. shocking grasp) or that ignore SR (e.g. snowball) and the Bladebound can even do sonic and force damage for a short time per day.
Arguably, the bigger issue is that with only medium BAB and a penalty to hit from spell combat you may have trouble reliably hitting a lot of targets that are appropriate for your power level...
Seriously, wherever did you get that idea? You get a free scaling Black Blade which will generally be better than what your allies wield, plus arcane pool enchant for +1 per four levels, plus Greater Magic Weapon on your list, plus the fact that if a touch spell misses, you retain its charge for the next attack.
If there's one thing a Magus won't have trouble with, it's hitting things.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Please see my last previous comment... I'm not trying to disparage the magus, it's an able offensive class, I'm just trying to point out that in gestalt the comparison isn't magus vs barb/ranger/whatever, it's a magus who's second class is adding almost no offense vs something like a slayer/blade adept who can use a lot of the magus tricks but has full BAB, more hp, more skills, more spells, and higher level spells; or just another magus who took swashbuckler instead of monk- who would have full BAB with all the normal magus buffs plus precise strike damage, and their defenses will still be comparable.
I can't speak to anyone else's experience but as someone who has GMed gestalt games (and is GMing one currently) I don't plan my encounters with a Full BAB as the benchmark, I plan based on full BAB plus buffs; so people who only have 3/4+buffs do definitely lag behind some.
|
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
|
I can't speak to anyone else's experience but as someone who has GMed gestalt games (and is GMing one currently) I don't plan my encounters with a Full BAB as the benchmark, I plan based on full BAB plus buffs; so people who only have 3/4+buffs do definitely lag behind some.
You're overlooking that the arcane pool enchantment makes up for the difference. That isn't the case for every partial-BAB class, but it is the case for this one: a level 10 Magus has +7 BAB and +3 from his arcane pool, which adds up to +10, exactly the same as a full-BAB class. Nobody's lagging behind here.
That said, you are correct that Magus/Monk isn't a particularly effective gestalt combination. I'd actually consider Magus/Rogue instead; you gain a good reflex save and evasion, tons of skill points, and sneak attack dice (and with spells that make it easy to get sneak attack off).
You're overlooking that the arcane pool enchantment makes up for the difference. That isn't the case for every partial-BAB class, but it is the case for this one: a level 10 Magus has +7 BAB and +3 from his arcane pool, which adds up to +10, exactly the same as a full-BAB class. Nobody's lagging behind here.
I think I must be explaining this poorly... the point I'm trying to get at is that while Arcane Pool taking you from +7 to +10 would balance things out in a standard game, in a gestalt game you're going to +10 while the magus/swashbuckler is using his arcane pool to go from +10 to +13. As a GM, if I'm running that game I'm planning encounters around the +13 or so that most melee characters will be starting at (so the magus/other .75 BAB class character is lagging).
in a standard game that's functionally equal to a full BAB, but:
- magus/swashbuckler 10 has +10 BAB and his arcane pool boosts him to +13
- barbarian/inquisitor 10 has +10 BAB and can use judgement as a swift action to hit +13 (plus rage)
- fighter/investigator 10 has +10 BAB and with quick study can use studied combat as a swift action for +15 (plus weapon training)
- ranger/warpriest 10 has +10 BAB and can use sacred weapon as a swift action to hit +12
That's obviously not an exhaustive list, but hopefully it helps clarify what I was trying to say: in gestalt using a swift action buff to make up for being behind full BAB still leaves you lagging behind those who can use a swift action buff to add to a full BAB. When I plan an encounter in a gestalt game I use the latter as the standard, not the prior.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I agree with Nate on this. A Magus while not a bad class isn't really a great spell caster or a true Martial class.
I don't think that was his point at all. A magus's fighting ability is pretty solid on its own - it just doesn't stack well with monk.
Basically - a gesalt campaign will assume a higher character power level than a normal one. Since the character would only have the same accuracy as a normal magus (fine on its own - but weak for a gesalt) it'd be behind.
He'd be better off combining Magus with a class with full BAB, possibly with additional accuracy (weapon training/studied target etc.) on top of that. Even a Umonk would work better than a normal monk.
A Magus might be higher but he is still stuck at +3 if wearing Breastplate.
Only if he forgets to get a mithril breastplate. Entirely moot to this conversation anyway as a magus/monk would be unarmored.
Make sure to use the Unchained Monk as it's Full BAB and the flurry of blows works differently.
I think the the Spell Combat and Flurry of Blows can work together. The only problem with this combo is it is MAD as gets. Looking at those stats and bonus of stats of the race you're going to end up with 8 CHR and CON unless you find a way to use DEX instead of strength.
|
Magus / Wizard is an insane gestalt, SO MANY SPELLS also more spells that can be used with spell combat
But for a more combat oriented character
Magus / Fighter is amazing, lots of feats, pump up that scimitar to amazing levels without magical enchants.
Prime stats are the same as usual with a regualr magus dervish dance build
Dex, Int, Con
then Str, Wis, Cha are your dump stats
I actually really like magus/full arcane caster. There are a lot of ways in which it's not an optimal combo: no full BAB, a bad save, only 2+ int skills... but as a primary caster there is some nice synergy- extra spells, improved action economy, and kensai in particular helps with you defenses (plus having a full caster class worth of spells more than offsets the kensai's reduced casting). It lets you really focus you stats pretty well, and could be a great place for the elven battle focus feat if you can afford it (and are an elf). Kensai/blade adept seems like a good way to build it.
@derek- the gestalt rules make it so that you're effectively leveling in two classes at once (taking the better of HD/saves/BAB/skills/etc). It's dramatically different in the way classes fit together than multiclassing.
|
So it looks like the OP's game was yesterday, but for others following:
I was shooting for a defensive build with the ability to deal damage. The combo, while MAD is the best way I was able to find while keeping any semblance of spellcasting. So basically I was wanting a Spellcaster who can run in with a sword and not be penalized for doing so.
I really don't think that this is the best combo for a spellcaster with a decent defense and the ability to use a sword.
On top of the weaknesses other posters have discussed, both the Magus and Flowing Monk use a lot of swift actions, which makes it hard to get the most out of both classes. I would also be concerned about flurry working with spell combat since both are similar to TWF.
I would recommend Kensai Magus with any Int-based full caster. It gives you much stronger spellcasting, if that's your primary concern, and as a Magus you'll at least have strong enough martial ability to make it a credible backup option. On top of Int to AC, you'll have the spell slots to spare for additional defensive buffs (Mage Armor, Mirror Image, Displacement). A decent Dex and your good Int make up for the low Ref save and skill points - with your stat array I'd swap Wis and Con, and stick with Dex-based.