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Not much of a problem until you hit wish/limited wish and miracle.
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The ten-minute casting time is usually a really big issue, unless you use with limited Wish/Miracle trick to bypass that casting time. Means you can't cast the spell on someone who isn't thoroughly restrained or immobilized. Sure, it's no-save, but if you have someone tied up enough to hit them with a ten-minute casting spell, you could just spam Dominate or Charm on them until they failed a save.
In my experience, it's not too much worse than any of the other mind-control spells. Geas/Quest is harder to detect with Sense Motive than Domination and can't be broken once it's cast, but you can only give orders when the spell is cast, and the people under control know they're being controlled and will try to play the loophole game with any orders the party gives them. Same general niche, just different pros and cons.
I've found that can lead to some problems similar to the way Wish can; sessions bogging down as the party tries to close ALL the loopholes and the GM tries to find something they missed. Granted, some groups probably enjoy trying to out-lawyer each other. Personally, I'd suggest not playing the loophole game too hard on either side, so long as the party isn't Geas-ing everything they meet.
As with Wish, it should be a linguistics check to word a Geas correctly, not 3 hours plus of players and GMs wrangling over the precise wording.
Most groups don't insist on live roleplaying for combat, so why male the players come up with the exact wording here?
This way a PC can be good or bad at it regardless of the player's own skill.
As for the spell, I've used it on captured PCs (where they were expected to find loopholes) as an alternative to executing them after a complete mess up.
I specifically ban Geas and Quest from being used in any combat-relevant sense (Wish/Miracle are cast as Standard actions, bypassing the 10-minute casting time for an instant no-save "Do what I say"). I also refuse to use it on players because that feels too much like railroading.
I also ban the spell for player use entirely unless there is a compelling story-related reason for doing so. Otherwise it becomes the solution to far too many problems - captured an enemy and need information? Geas them so they have to tell you everything they know. Need a reliable spy? Quest them to be loyal to you, no more worries there. You have a villain who has so many contingencies in place that even when you kill them they'll just end up coming back? Geas them to teleport or plane shift somewhere remote, tell them not to negatively influence/affect anyone or set things in motion that will cause something bad to happen, and tell them to ensure their survival so they won't die and remove the geas. Shopkeeper is charging normal price for gear instead of giving it to you for free? Problem solved. It's not like it's that hard to set it up either - all you need is 10 minutes uninterrupted. You could bind them, knock them out, charm them, etc. With a well-written command you can eliminate most loopholes too.
I find this tactic devoid of any taste or artistry.
This kind of relates to all enchantments but would mentally compelling a person be a crime in most societies that had magic.
A version of assault maybe?
Compelling the shop keeper to give you stuff for free is surely theft. As much as holding a gun to his head is?
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A scroll of Geas is 1,650gp. Since there's no saving throw, it's just as effective as the real thing. Could be pretty useful for a mid-level group who has captured a powerful enemy.
Geas them to teleport or plane shift somewhere remote, tell them not to negatively influence/affect anyone or set things in motion that will cause something bad to happen, and tell them to ensure their survival so they won't die and remove the geas.
I don't think that wording works. "If the instructions involve some open-ended task that the recipient cannot complete through his own actions, the spell remains in effect for a maximum of 1 day per caster level." You have to give them a task they can complete within a finite amount of time. Once it's complete they're free of your commands. If they can't complete it, it wears off within days.
A scroll of Geas is 1,650gp. Since there's no saving throw, it's just as effective as the real thing. Could be pretty useful for a mid-level group who has captured a powerful enemy.
Geas them to teleport or plane shift somewhere remote, tell them not to negatively influence/affect anyone or set things in motion that will cause something bad to happen, and tell them to ensure their survival so they won't die and remove the geas.I don't think that wording works. "If the instructions involve some open-ended task that the recipient cannot complete through his own actions, the spell remains in effect for a maximum of 1 day per caster level." You have to give them a task they can complete within a finite amount of time. Once it's complete they're free of your commands. If they can't complete it, it wears off within days.
So follow it up with the stipulation "Return to me every X days to renew the Geas". Easy.
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That would require your character to always be in a convenient place for them to find.
How about: "Here is a rock. Look after this rock and follow me around keeping me alive until you can give it back to me next week."
Then you cast Geas on them again regularly.
I specifically ban Geas and Quest from being used in any combat-relevant sense (Wish/Miracle are cast as Standard actions, bypassing the 10-minute casting time for an instant no-save "Do what I say"). I also refuse to use it on players because that feels too much like railroading.
I also ban the spell for player use entirely unless there is a compelling story-related reason for doing so. Otherwise it becomes the solution to far too many problems - captured an enemy and need information? Geas them so they have to tell you everything they know. Need a reliable spy? Quest them to be loyal to you, no more worries there. You have a villain who has so many contingencies in place that even when you kill them they'll just end up coming back? Geas them to teleport or plane shift somewhere remote, tell them not to negatively influence/affect anyone or set things in motion that will cause something bad to happen, and tell them to ensure their survival so they won't die and remove the geas. Shopkeeper is charging normal price for gear instead of giving it to you for free? Problem solved. It's not like it's that hard to set it up either - all you need is 10 minutes uninterrupted. You could bind them, knock them out, charm them, etc. With a well-written command you can eliminate most loopholes too.
I find this tactic devoid of any taste or artistry.
QFT.
And I want to stress the part about Limited wish/geas: do not allow it in your games folks. It might be accettable by RAW put it's certainly not RAI.
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And I want to stress the part about Limited wish/geas: do not allow it in your games folks. It might be accettable by RAW put it's certainly not RAI.
I'm dubious that it's RAW either.
•Duplicate any sorcerer/wizard spell of 6th level or lower, provided the spell does not belong to one of your opposition schools.
It says specifically that it duplicates the spell - not the spell's effect. I'd argue that part of duplicating the spell includes the 10 minute casting time.
And I want to stress the part about Limited wish/geas: do not allow it in your games folks. It might be accettable by RAW put it's certainly not RAI.I'm dubious that it's RAW either.
•Duplicate any sorcerer/wizard spell of 6th level or lower, provided the spell does not belong to one of your opposition schools.It says specifically that it duplicates the spell - not the spell's effect. I'd argue that part of duplicating the spell includes the 10 minute casting time.
Even if you think that limited wish should turn Geas into a standard action, making it so it doesn't as a house rule prevents most of the possible abuses.
With regards to abusing shopkeepers, etc, it's no different to any other method of stealing so the consequences of doing that should be whatever the GM thinks is appropriate for the situation and game setting.
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Kinda funny that protection from evil will prevent a geas from working, but does nothing if it is already in place.
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I was in a campaign where a (GM)NPC Mesmerist managed to use lesser geas on one of the PC's with the instruction to "never say [the NPC's] name again and never reveal this geas". It worked pretty well for his purposes since he was manipulating the governments of two city states at the time and didn't want to be found out.
The Lesser Geas was only actually in effect for 8 days, but the character gave up trying to say the guy's name since the geas prevented him from doing so. When the time ran out he didn't know that he could say it again since he'd gotten into the habit.
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I admit I have no actual experience with it, but Limited Wish: Geas has numerous restrictions:
* It costs 1,500 gold.
* Being immune to mind-affecting effects respective compulsion stops it.
* Spell resistance applies.
* Any other spell defense applies (spell turning, counterspell etc.).
* The target must be able to understand you.
* It doesn't have to follow orders resulting in certain death.
* The spell doesn't automatically make the victim your friend.
* Wording might contain loopholes.
* Any ally with Remove Curse (level 3 spell!) can remove it.
If someone would put a Geas on me (my PC) and doesn't word it carefully, I will chop off their head and then look for the next opportunity to get Remove Curse. Heck, I might even be able to cast it on myself and then chop off the head.
Sometimes you should be better off with a simple Dominate Person (level 5, no gold cost, more control afterwards). Given the power level of enchantment spells, Geas doesn't seem to be something extreme - in comparison.
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And I want to stress the part about Limited wish/geas: do not allow it in your games folks. It might be accettable by RAW put it's certainly not RAI.I'm dubious that it's RAW either.
•Duplicate any sorcerer/wizard spell of 6th level or lower, provided the spell does not belong to one of your opposition schools.It says specifically that it duplicates the spell - not the spell's effect. I'd argue that part of duplicating the spell includes the 10 minute casting time.
Your argument has no basis since the casting time (And thus the time it takes Limited Wish to duplicate the spell) is specifically listed as 1 standard action. RAW and RAI, that is how Miracle/Limited Wish/Wish works.
Kinda funny that protection from evil will prevent a geas from working, but does nothing if it is already in place.
Protection from Evil/Good/Chaos/Law won't help you if the caster of the Geas is Neutral...
Wouldn't it be better to just make the geas "Do not resist, oppose, or attempt to harm me" and then just cast Dominate/Charm on them? Since they can't resist you, they can't roll Will Save to negate more standard methods of control. You could potentially control a character much higher level than yourself with this simple combo.
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Protection from Evil/Good/Chaos/Law won't help you if the caster of the Geas is Neutral...
The crux of any good villain.
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Protection from Evil/Good/Chaos/Law won't help you if the caster of the Geas is Neutral...The crux of any good villain.
What makes a man turn Neutral? Lust for gold? Power? Or where they just born with a heart of Neutrality?
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Your argument has no basis since the casting time (And thus the time it takes Limited Wish to duplicate the spell) is specifically listed as 1 standard action. RAW and RAI, that is how Miracle/Limited Wish/Wish works.And I want to stress the part about Limited wish/geas: do not allow it in your games folks. It might be accettable by RAW put it's certainly not RAI.I'm dubious that it's RAW either.
•Duplicate any sorcerer/wizard spell of 6th level or lower, provided the spell does not belong to one of your opposition schools.It says specifically that it duplicates the spell - not the spell's effect. I'd argue that part of duplicating the spell includes the 10 minute casting time.
Arguably. But it's also arguable that it's as I wrote. The 1 standard action is listed for Limited Wish - after that 1 standard action you need to then add 10 minutes in order to replicate Geas.
Being dismissive doesn't actually prove anything.
Your argument has no basis since the casting time (And thus the time it takes Limited Wish to duplicate the spell) is specifically listed as 1 standard action. RAW and RAI, that is how Miracle/Limited Wish/Wish works.And I want to stress the part about Limited wish/geas: do not allow it in your games folks. It might be accettable by RAW put it's certainly not RAI.I'm dubious that it's RAW either.
•Duplicate any sorcerer/wizard spell of 6th level or lower, provided the spell does not belong to one of your opposition schools.It says specifically that it duplicates the spell - not the spell's effect. I'd argue that part of duplicating the spell includes the 10 minute casting time.Arguably. But it's also arguable that it's as I wrote. The 1 standard action is listed for Limited Wish - after that 1 standard action you need to then add 10 minutes in order to replicate Geas.
Being dismissive doesn't actually prove anything.
No it's not arguable. Limited Wish has resolved completely in 1 standard action. That's it's listed casting time. You've either cast the spell then or you haven't. So... it takes 1 Standard Action. Note that nearly every other column says "see text" except that one. You can't cast the spell to start casting another spell, then it's cast time would have to be 1 Standard Action (see text). It's not. It's very clear that you duplicate the spell in 1 standard action. There is no language to support your argument.
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No it's not arguable. Limited Wish has resolved completely in 1 standard action. That's it's listed casting time. You've either cast the spell then or you haven't. So... it take 1 Standard Action. Note that nearly every other column says "see text" except that one. You can't cast the spell to start casting another spell, then it's cast time would have to be 1 Standard Action (see text). It's not. It's very clear that you duplicate the spell in 1 standard action. There is no language to support your argument.Your argument has no basis since the casting time (And thus the time it takes Limited Wish to duplicate the spell) is specifically listed as 1 standard action. RAW and RAI, that is how Miracle/Limited Wish/Wish works.And I want to stress the part about Limited wish/geas: do not allow it in your games folks. It might be accettable by RAW put it's certainly not RAI.I'm dubious that it's RAW either.
•Duplicate any sorcerer/wizard spell of 6th level or lower, provided the spell does not belong to one of your opposition schools.It says specifically that it duplicates the spell - not the spell's effect. I'd argue that part of duplicating the spell includes the 10 minute casting time.Arguably. But it's also arguable that it's as I wrote. The 1 standard action is listed for Limited Wish - after that 1 standard action you need to then add 10 minutes in order to replicate Geas.
Being dismissive doesn't actually prove anything.
Except - that wording doesn't invalidate my reading at all. After 1 standard action you HAVE finished casting Limited Wish. You then take 10 minutes to cast Geas.
Except - that wording doesn't invalidate my reading at all. After 1 standard action you HAVE finished casting Limited Wish. You then take 10 minutes to cast Geas.No it's not arguable. Limited Wish has resolved completely in 1 standard action. That's it's listed casting time. You've either cast the spell then or you haven't. So... it take 1 Standard Action. Note that nearly every other column says "see text" except that one. You can't cast the spell to start casting another spell, then it's cast time would have to be 1 Standard Action (see text). It's not. It's very clear that you duplicate the spell in 1 standard action. There is no language to support your argument.Your argument has no basis since the casting time (And thus the time it takes Limited Wish to duplicate the spell) is specifically listed as 1 standard action. RAW and RAI, that is how Miracle/Limited Wish/Wish works.And I want to stress the part about Limited wish/geas: do not allow it in your games folks. It might be accettable by RAW put it's certainly not RAI.I'm dubious that it's RAW either.
•Duplicate any sorcerer/wizard spell of 6th level or lower, provided the spell does not belong to one of your opposition schools.It says specifically that it duplicates the spell - not the spell's effect. I'd argue that part of duplicating the spell includes the 10 minute casting time.Arguably. But it's also arguable that it's as I wrote. The 1 standard action is listed for Limited Wish - after that 1 standard action you need to then add 10 minutes in order to replicate Geas.
Being dismissive doesn't actually prove anything.
Then Limited Wish did not duplicate Geas in a standard action. Which the spell says it does. It's very simple:
A limited wish lets you create nearly any type of effect. For example, a limited wish can do any of the following things.
Duplicate any sorcerer/wizard spell of 6th level or lower, provided the spell does not belong to one of your opposition schools.
Because duplicating any spell is an effect of casting Limited Wish, it must be completed in Limited Wish's casting time of 1 standard action. That is the RAW and RAI.
So your interpretation is flawed. Your reading would require language that does not exist. Therefore your interpretation has no support.
I think I am with Anzyr on this one. The limited wish spell represents you making a wish, albeit a less powerful one. "I wish xxx would yyy or suffer the consequences". That doesn't take 10 minutes to cast.
It does however take a 1500 GP diamond which would limit its usefulness and availability.
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Because duplicating any spell is an effect of casting Limited Wish, it must be completed in Limited Wish's casting time of 1 standard action. That is the RAW and RAI.
You duplicate the spell. You do not duplicate the spell's effect. Part of the spell Geas IS the 10 minute casting time.
If it said "Duplicate any sorcerer/wizard spell effect of 6th level or lower" then I'd agree with you.
Even if your reading is correct RAW (a point I do not concede) - it's pretty obviously not RAI.
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I think I am with Anzyr on this one. The limited wish spell represents you making a wish, albeit a less powerful one. "I wish xxx would yyy or suffer the consequences". That doesn't take 10 minutes to cast.
No - it takes a standard action to cast "I wish to cast Geas" - and then it takes 10 minutes to cast Geas.
Or... it just does it in 1 standard action. Since that's what it says. Yes you duplicate the spell. By casting Limited Wish. Which takes 1 standard action. If it were to take longer then that as you propose, the casting time would need to be (see text) or 1 standard action (see text). As is though, there is no evidence to support your claim.
I think I am with Anzyr on this one. The limited wish spell represents you making a wish, albeit a less powerful one. "I wish xxx would yyy or suffer the consequences". That doesn't take 10 minutes to cast.No - it takes a standard action to cast "I wish to cast Geas" - and then it takes 10 minutes to cast Geas.
The text says no such thing. Nor does the casting time. Please cite something that supports your argument.
The text says no such thing. Nor does the casting time. Please cite something that supports your argument.Of course the text of Limited Wish doesn't mention 10 minutes. The text of Geas does.
Then you have not finished casting Limited Wish (duplicating Geas) in 1 standard action, invalidating your interpretation. Doubly so if you are using an interpretation that to you cast Limited Wish to "cast" Geas. Even then... you still have not managed to complete Limited Wishes effect in 1 standard action under your interpretation.
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Doubly so if you are using an interpretation that to you cast Limited Wish to "cast" Geas. Even then... you still have not managed to complete Limited Wishes effect in 1 standard action under your interpretation.
No - you don't cast Limited Wish to cast Geas. My interpretation is that your casting of Limited Wish allows you to then cast Geas. (Duplicating the spell rather than they spell's effect as you keep arguing.) Limited Wish makes it so that you "can do X" - in this case cast Geas. Very different. The casting of Limited Wish is totally over after a standard action. You then "can" then "Duplicate any sorcerer/wizard spell of 6th level or lower" - and Limited Wish is over.
You can then immediately start casting whatever spell Limited Wish is duplicating - in the case of Geas - taking 10 minutes.
In total taking a standard action + 10 minutes.
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One thing I've found on the Paizo boards*: there isn't anything that is not arguable.
*See also: Internet in general.
+1 to anzyr, the text says 1 standard action, the effects of the spell are being duplicated, not the casting time.
Charon's Little Helper, I can count on one hand the number of times I have agreed with Anzyr. I wouldn't unless I was pretty certain! lol.
One thing I'll on the casting time debate, if we're saying limited wish doesn't actually cast the spell but just allows it to be cast with it's normal casting time, then using it to duplicate 99% of spells in the game would require two standard actions. After all, if Gaes/Quest still requires additional actions to fill out its casting time after being duplicated with Wish, then so does every other spell in the game.
Wish-duplicating most spells requiring two standard actions doesn't strike me as RAW or RAI.
Now, I think a house rule that duplicating a spell with a casting time longer than a standard action increases the casting time of Limited Wish to that spell's casting time isn't unreasonable, but that's a house rule.
Charon's Little Helper, I can count on one hand the number of times I have agreed with Anzyr. I wouldn't unless I was pretty certain! lol.
Yep, I agree too.
However making a house rule that a Geas stays at 10 minutes even when duplicated with Limited Wish (if that is how you want to play it) solves the argument.Can that particular matter be shelved? Charon and Anzyr (and the rest) aren't ever going to be convinced that the other side is correct and it is derailing the rest of the useful advice.
Now you're adding something to the text. The text never says "effect". If it did - I'd agree entirely. Instead, it's the entire spell which is being duplicated - that includes both the effect & the casting time.
A limited wish lets you create nearly any type of effect.
You could say in this case that specific trumps general when the spell description goes on to list all the variations of spells that can be 'duplicated', but the word 'duplicate' is no more specific that the word 'effect'.
QUOTE="Charon's Little Helper"] Now you're adding something to the text. The text never says "effect". If it did - I'd agree entirely. Instead, it's the entire spell which is being duplicated - that includes both the effect & the casting time.
A limited wish lets you create nearly any type of effect. For example, a limited wish can do any of the following things.
* Duplicate any sorcerer/wizard spell of 6th level or lower, provided ....
* Duplicate any non-sorcerer/wizard spell of 5th level or lower, provided ....
* Duplicate any sorcerer/wizard spell of 5th level or lower, ....
* Duplicate any non-sorcerer/wizard spell of 4th level or lower, ....
...
You create an effect in one standard action.
That effect can be a duplicate of the effect of a spell.No additional casting time needed even if the duplicated spell effect's spell normally takes longer (i.e. Simulacrum has a 12 hour cast).
/cevah