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Hi All,
Whist others may be dealing with the Sky Key and trying their darndest against the Aspis, I coordinate for a for a group of pathfinders still dealing with the shenanigans of the Shadow Lodge and solving the mysteries of the Hao Jin Tapestry.
We jumped into organised play after the rules change that made faction missions something that could be used to add additional narrative, but now provide little, if any, mechanical benefit.
I'm 100% on board with everyone playing towards the same objective, but the consequence it has had on these early scenarios is that factions means almost nothing to my local players, apart from a couple that make use of the faction journal cards.
Would it be detrimental to the campaign if the 2nd prestige condition was to complete either the secondary objective or your faction mission? Naturally, this would make earning 2 PP easier, but might help bring factions more central to the plot. I could see the factions of then being different from the factions of now causing an issue (handing Andoran faction missions to Silver Crusaders has felt dodge on a couple of occasions), so while I'm not totally convinced by my own suggestion, I thought it was still worth putting out there.
Are there any lodges out there battling through the past like ours that have been able to make factions feel relevant to their players? Have factions started to feel more relevant from season 5 onwards?
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Would it be detrimental to the campaign if the 2nd prestige condition was to complete either the secondary objective or your faction mission?
Just to be clear here, are you asking if it's OK for your local group to do faction missions (and get prestige for them) instead of the secondary objective? If so, the answer is no. Or are you proposing that that be made a legal option?
As someone who's lived through all the various incarnations of faction missions, I'm happy to see the back of them. They just made life more complicated for the GM (and may have put new GMs off), distracted from the main mission, strained plausibility ('look for item X in the dungeon that's been unexplored for 10,000 years') and introduced intra-party conflict when priorities were different. I think the faction journal cards are a good compromise, allowing the GM (and those not interested in factions) to focus on the main scenario, while also giving relevance to factions for those that value them.
I would prefer not to play at a table (either as a GM or player) where others were distracted by faction missions (or had the authority to insist we all use them).
Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
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Some later scenarios are pretty relevant to their factions (school of spirits is a good example), and to be honest, some older scenarios have quite relevant faction missions (The Golemworks incident is a good one) while in other cases, they are .... not quite as good (and sometimes fulfilling one can prevent another player from fulfilling his).
Quite a number of old scenarios could do with a refresh (particularly those that require access to 3.5 material) but something like this takes time.
Faction cards were a good start, and if your players want to associated with the factions, it will happen at some point.
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Just to be clear here, are you asking if it's OK for your local group to do faction missions (and get prestige for them) instead of the secondary objective? If so, the answer is no. Or are you proposing that that be made a legal option?
My proposal would be to make it a legal option, assuming it would be well received by the community.
If it was just detrimental to the campaign, I can see why the change would be made retroactively to apply to all season 0-4 scenarios. Would you usually just ignore factions when running an older scenario?
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Would you usually just ignore factions when running an older scenario?
I don't ignore factions completely, as some factions are strongly linked to some scenarios (e.g. 'the Disappeared'). But I don't hand out the faction missions or refer to things that only have relevance to an individual faction mission (e.g. a scorpion tattoo on an otherwise irrelevant NPC).
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Occasionally the secondary success condition *is* one of the old faction missions. Sometimes it's relevant, someone's it's just the right thing to do (as in, not murder hobo). There are a few scenarios where I wish at least some of the old faction missions were handed out, since as Sebastian and Matt said, the info can be very important to the storyline, or the current incarnation of that faction.
Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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Have you looked at the new faction cards? They are in many ways superior to the old faction missions.
No more story breaking psychic VCs (We are sending you through this portal to find out where it goes, but if you can bring back a yeti, that would be nice.)
No more "I check for a tea set" in every room.
The tasks are actually *relevant* to the faction
The benefits are more unique and flavorful than a second prestige point.
Players know in advance most of the skills they will need to carry out their faction missions, and can invest ahead of time.
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You can absolutely hand out faction missions, but the players cannot use them to earn their second prestige points. It can be a useful roleplaying tool and a way to help players feel connected to their factions. But keep in mind that one of the main problems experienced by GMs was faction missions becoming a distraction from the actual scenario and slowing down the session. There are also rare cases where a faction mission might prevent a party from achieving their secondary success condition.
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No more "I check for a tea set" in every room.
Right. Now we have faction cards, so it's:
What country are we in?
Does this thing count as a minor artifact?
Is this guy a slave or captive?
Was this thing an evil outsider with a CR equal to or greater than my character level?
Do they allow slavery in this country?
Does this person count as someone I can recruit to be a part of my faction?
Over.
And over.
And over.
So we have removed the author requirement or putting faction missions into scenarios (which is great), but assuming your players have faction cards there doesn't seem to be too much of a difference in time spent on personal missions.
But that may just be me. :P
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To be fair, these cards aren't any more trouble than the actual faction missions were. If your players are the kind who ask if there is a tea set in every room, they will be the kind who asks a dozen questions about their card over the course of the scenario.
It's the players that are the problem, not the card/mission.
I just find it a bit amusing that one of the reasons the faction missions were cut was to help cut down on time so the party could spend more time on the actual mission. And then a couple years later we have the cards.
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Have you tried going over the cards at the end of the session? If players trust that you'll let them punch the subway card they seem less worried about it.No more "I check for a tea set" in every room.
Right. Now we have faction cards, so it's:
What country are we in?
Sometimes, but some of them lend themselves to being done at the moment too well. If you go out of your way to recruit someone to your faction and are successful at it, then Im probably gonna give you a bit of a bonus for roleplaying with that person for the rest of the scenario.
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I find the biggest distraction being players who aren't practiced at working these suggestions into the natural flow of the game. But there isn't much you can do about it other than give them time to grow and learn how to do it more subtly than "YOU! Do you want to be Exchange?"
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Sometimes, but some of them lend themselves to being done at the moment too well. If you go out of your way to recruit someone to your faction and are successful at it, then Im probably gonna give you a bit of a bonus for roleplaying with that person for the rest of the scenario.
Those are usually worth the distraction.
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No more "I check for a tea set" in every room.
Right. Now we have faction cards, so it's:
What country are we in?
Is this guy a slave or captive?
Do they allow slavery in this country?
Yeah. I hate players who want to know where they are. And those who want to know more about that country or even NPCs they interact with are the absolute WORST.
;)
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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I admit, it is funny watching the Liberties edge's constant hunt for slavers. But at least it is in character! It's not some random teapot that the faction head psychicly knew would be there.
"Darn it, he only had three slaves. If he just had one more he would count for defeating a slaver. Quick! someone go buy him one more slave!" (The last sentence has not actually happened in game, but I am waiting for it.)
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As much as some of the old faction missions were silly, pointless, or downright nonsensical, I still miss them.
They helped get combat focused players to pay attention to room descriptions and NPCs outside of combat. They provided regular direct contact from your faction leader, so you'd actually know something about that NPC's personality. Some of the faction missions were actually plot relevant.
And some of them were just friggin hilarious, even when they made no sense. Or maybe I should say, especially if they made no sense! ie "I do this for Taldor!"
I don't know why, but Taldor always seemed to have the goofiest faction missions. Other than that famous quote, I also remember the one from part 3 (I think) of Eyes of the Ten, which was just as weird and fun. Or the first part of The Devil We Know, where you have to push a guy off a ship into the bay, to embarrass him - I had to do that with my 7 strength gnome sorcerer from Taldor.
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No more "I check for a tea set" in every room.
Right. Now we have faction cards, so it's:
What country are we in?
Is this guy a slave or captive?
Do they allow slavery in this country?
Yeah. I hate players who want to know where they are. And those who want to know more about that country or even NPCs they interact with are the absolute WORST.
;)
Yes, they are! Im glad we are on the same page!
:P
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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I do kind of miss the notes from the Paracountess... :/ The group I have now haven't really be able to experience her in her glory.
I'm pretty sure there are still some in season 6 & 7. I think you even get to give them a personal briefing in one season 6 scenario?
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As much as some of the old faction missions were silly, pointless, or downright nonsensical, I still miss them.
They helped get combat focused players to pay attention to room descriptions and NPCs outside of combat. They provided regular direct contact from your faction leader, so you'd actually know something about that NPC's personality. Some of the faction missions were actually plot relevant.
And some of them were just friggin hilarious, even when they made no sense. Or maybe I should say, especially if they made no sense! ie "I do this for Taldor!"
I don't know why, but Taldor always seemed to have the goofiest faction missions. Other than that famous quote, I also remember the one from part 3 (I think) of Eyes of the Ten, which was just as weird and fun. Or the first part of The Devil We Know, where you have to push a guy off a ship into the bay, to embarrass him - I had to do that with my 7 strength gnome sorcerer from Taldor.
And you hit a couple of nails on the head, there.
"plot relevant" is not the term I would use. Giveaways and blatant spoilers is closer to what it is.
And some of those missions, Taldor or otherwise, were just PITA for anyone not in those factions. People sneaking away form the party to do something "no one knows about" or having to do stupid things (set fire to a granary? Seriously?)
And, of course, there were those faction missions that were just so stupid that they couldn't be failed, even if you weren't trying to do them. "Kill the guy who turns out to be the BBEG for this scenario." is what a couple I have seen basically translate as, when you connect the fluff (Kill the evil bard) with the scenario (BBEG is an evil Bard)
And I won't even go into a couple of games where I don't remember what our Pathfinder Society mission was, as it got completely ignored by everyone trying to do their various and sundry faction missions. I know I spent a significant portion of one scenario, while we were completing it successfully, looking for the people who matched what one part of my faction mission said. Turns out that we ran across them early,m and completed the mission successfully, but didn't find out about it until the wrap-up.
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So I recently ran 2-24 Shadow's Last Stand, Part 2 - Web of Corruption, and decided that I would hand out the factions missions to see the impact it would have on the scenario.
It was still a good adventure all in all, but the faction missions seemed to detract from, rather than add to the scenario.
Going forward, I will probably try to evaluate any spoiler free faction missions that add to the scenario, giving players the option of the additional handout.
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I came very close to having that last sentence happen in a game I ran. The slaver in question had one slave short of the number needed in her possession at the time sheI admit, it is funny watching the Liberties edge's constant hunt for slavers. But at least it is in character! It's not some random teapot that the faction head psychicly knew would be there.
"Darn it, he only had three slaves. If he just had one more he would count for defeating a slaver. Quick! someone go buy him one more slave!" (The last sentence has not actually happened in game, but I am waiting for it.)
was murderhoboedmet her just deserts. I had to patiently explain to the disappointed Edgers, "She was the captain of a slave ship. She was bringing slaves to town to sell them. Re-read the mission on your faction card, you get it if the defeated NPC explicitly traffics in slaves..."
Are you saying that, number of slaves aside, the captain of the slave ship who was taking the slaves to market is not trafficking slaves?
Cause Im not sure, but that's kinda what it looks like youre saying.
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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I came very close to having that last sentence happen in a game I ran. The slaver in question had one slave short of the number needed in her possession at the time sheI admit, it is funny watching the Liberties edge's constant hunt for slavers. But at least it is in character! It's not some random teapot that the faction head psychicly knew would be there.
"Darn it, he only had three slaves. If he just had one more he would count for defeating a slaver. Quick! someone go buy him one more slave!" (The last sentence has not actually happened in game, but I am waiting for it.)
was murderhoboedmet her just deserts. I had to patiently explain to the disappointed Edgers, "She was the captain of a slave ship. She was bringing slaves to town to sell them. Re-read the mission on your faction card, you get it if the defeated NPC explicitly traffics in slaves..."Are you saying that, number of slaves aside, the captain of the slave ship who was taking the slaves to market is not trafficking slaves?
Cause Im not sure, but that's kinda what it looks like youre saying.
No, he is saying he had trouble convincing the players that they got credit for it and they didn't need to buy him more slaves before killing him.
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I admit, it is funny watching the Liberties edge's constant hunt for slavers. But at least it is in character! It's not some random teapot that the faction head psychicly knew would be there.
"Darn it, he only had three slaves. If he just had one more he would count for defeating a slaver. Quick! someone go buy him one more slave!" (The last sentence has not actually happened in game, but I am waiting for it.)
Or a complete derail as the LE folks go looking for the person who *sold* them the slaves...
<.<
>.>
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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I admit, it is funny watching the Liberties edge's constant hunt for slavers. But at least it is in character! It's not some random teapot that the faction head psychicly knew would be there.
"Darn it, he only had three slaves. If he just had one more he would count for defeating a slaver. Quick! someone go buy him one more slave!" (The last sentence has not actually happened in game, but I am waiting for it.)
Or a complete derail as the LE folks go looking for the person who *sold* them the slaves...
<.<
>.>
Amusingly I read LE as Lawful Evil and wondered why they cared where the slaves came from...
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Contributor
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I just ran #4-15, and there were a lot of complaints about the particulars of the new SSC.
Between that and a player claiming that the prana ghost template (from Occult Bestiary) was legal for his character, we had a very... interesting... session.