so im a new GM and im wanting to make an appropriate encounter for my players.
They are starting at level 3 and they have 5 players.
im just trying to figure out how to make a proper enemies for them
So this group contains players familer with pathfinder so i want to make it challenging.
The way the book describes on how to calculate challenge rating for your group isnt to helpful to me. if anyone can give me examples on how you calculate how you decided how your encounters are fair for your players.
I want it to be harder. Character death is possible but i dont want the encounter to mean they will die. i dont want the encounter to be a formality. I know the players think challenging content is fun.
So with 5 players all at level 3, you have an average party level (APL) of 3. That means you are looking for encounters with CR 2 (very easy), 3 (relatively easy), 4 (moderate), 5 (hard), or 6 (epic). If you go higher than that at lower levels you risk a TPK (total party kill).
As Mathius said, you generally want to avoid single monsters due to the action economy of 5 PCs versus one enemy. You could possibly go with a pair of monsters, though, in my opinion.
So a pair of 2nd level hobgoblin fighters (CR 1 individually) is a CR 3 encounter. Pretty easy for a party of 5 level 3 characters. If the hobgoblins attack from ambush and have snares and traps then you could increase the CR to 4 and give the party more of an interesting combat.
A single ogre would also be CR 3 but would likely be a much easier fight for your party. Two ogres would be CR 5 and could be a good challenge if the party doesn't catch them unawares.
Be sure you understand how CRs work, even if they are just guidelines. They are good guidelines. Play around with it. Much about encounter design can depend on what PCs your players make up and how they work with each other. Check out the guide and read through the Gamemastering section of the CRB. Good luck, and have fun!
I posted this in a thread a while ago, and it always works pretty nice for me. It makes for some nice fun fights that the PC's can feel proud of:
"As others have stated before, More minions might make it effective. Not only will they have to spend resources to take them down, or be paper cutted to death, but it will give the BBEG time to cast spells, set up traps, or even attack from range, or buff up.
Or even consider having the BBEG have a trusty lieutenant. Much like Megatron and Starscream.
Just have them be buddies, or close to each other. The second guy doesnt have to be as strong as the BBEG, but maybe half his strength or so.
For example:
1 Goblin Warchief BBEG(maybe lv3-5) flanked by 2 goblin Commandos (lv2-3) with maybe 4 goblin grunts (lv1) around the field.
1 Evil Necromancer (lv4-5) with his trusty Skeleton Champion(lv2-3) with a bunch of shambling zombies(lv1)
1 Giant(4-5) with 1 giant (lv4-5). Two large creatures have a longer reach, and thus are a challange on their own when PC's try to get into better combat positions.
These are by no means SOLID examples, but if you want a nice memorable fight this is a good way to go. Remember, if the lv1 grunt enemies are attacking the party, those behind them will have a -4 range penalty for shooting into melee. Likewise, if your PC's want to blast the BBEG instead of focusing on the smaller guys, soft bodies grant a +4 AC to enemies if you are shooting through them. Not to mention range attacks usually provoke AOO's.
Some fine suggestions thus far, for my part, terrain, tactics, and a little bit of misdirection go a long way in making otherwise easy CR2 and CR3 encounters more interesting and fun for all. Difficult terrain, cover for the baddies, clever (as appropriate for the Int of the critter) tactics, and some gentle GM prodding to get the PC's into a bit of a tight spot can really change the encounter dynamics. It is not always about what your players fight, sometimes it is the where, when, and how.
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How many encounters are you planning? It's always best if you can layer several different types of encounter (combat, hazard, social, etc.) with multiple levels of difficulty into a particular session.
If you're designing a big set-piece battle (the focus for a particular session, for instance) then you should look at three elements:
1 - Story
Why is the fight happening? What are the victory conditions? What are the consequences of either victory or defeat? The players should be very aware of all these things.
2 - Environment
Where is the fight happening? Does the terrain/lighting/weather/presence of a rotating deathtrap help or hinder either side in the fight? Or both sides? If one side is at a disadvantage, why are they choosing to fight here? What are the escape routes? Some or this may come as a surprise to the players.
3 - Foes
CR and APL are a good place to start. Lots of low-level mooks to cut through will make the PCs feel like big damn heroes and help shield the boss. Environment and story considerations can make even a low-level foe more challenging, or a high level foe easier.
im starting with a escape from a dunguen scenario
the thing that was wielding me out about what dosgamer is if i have 4 players of APL of 3 i shoul use a CR 3
if i have 4 players at APL of 3 i also use a CR 3 but there are more players now. im just having trouble understanding how to make a fun balanced but challenging encounters
im starting with a escape from a dunguen scenario
the thing that was wielding me out about what dosgamer is if i have 4 players of APL of 3 i shoul use a CR 3
if i have 4 players at APL of 3 i also use a CR 3 but there are more players now. im just having trouble understanding how to make a fun balanced but challenging encounters
Yeah... CR table and compositions are kinda wonky in that sense.
As others have stated before, too many players, and not enough creatures, will make mince meat of encounters. Likewise, too many creatures and too few players will make mince meat of the PC's.
and in some instances, CR doesn't keep to par with the actual creature themselves.
My best advice is swarm them with smaller creatures, and toss in some interestingly resilient creatures. Alternatively, what I enjoy doing is employing creatures with High HP, and low AC. This way characters who aren't as optimized in combat can feel accomplished, while those who are optimized in combat can feel powerful.
One should also note that alternatives to encounters should exist at some point.
My players are about lv5, and occasionally a random encounter table will present goblins, but since they are on horseback, the goblins are very reluctant to attack.
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Equal CR (so CR 3 on a 3rd level party) combat encounters aren't challenging. Or really intended to be so. They take resources to defeat, but there's little real risk.
To challenge the PCs, you're talking CR of APL +2-4. APL+2 is tough, but the PCs still have a very solid edge. APL+3 is nasty, but still very definitely slanted in the PCs favor if they're fresh, and APL+4 is actually an even fight, where the PCs have a 50% chance of losing (and is worse than that if they go in tired and hurt).
That said, all those numbers assume 4 PCs. 5 means they're gonna have a slightly easier time with all encounters using the official rules...though APL+4 fights still aren't gonna be easy at all.
And well-optimized characters also tend to make fights easier. The last game I ran for well-optimized characters where I was doing all my own encounter design, I don't think they had any encounters that weren't of CR equal to APL+3 or higher. The fights were challenging, but they did fine, and had fun (I made it clear how things were gonna work).
So, if players do not believe the risk is real, many of them will not find the reward as exciting. What "risk" is for each group varies -- is it character death? Is it failing to achieve goals even if they beat all the monsters in a fight? Whatever it is, players need to believe that there will be some consequence for not doing well, and some reward for doing well.
The guides listed here do a good job to start giving you a handle on getting a good "typical" and "challenging" game. One important part to remember is that the game frame work makes resource management an important element. An encounter that your party uses about 25% of their resources, including per day special abilities, magic, and spells to "quickly beat" their foes worked exactly as intended. It is also ok to let the players have the chance to let their characters shine.
The key is to not let all the encounters be the same, and to not let the "best path" for triumph always be the same.
One way to do this is by variety! Variety is the spice of life, and of encounters. Change the type of things they are fighting. Or the creatures approach. Or its look. Or the number that appear. Or the pacing of the encounters. Or the environment.
Look for ways to create interesting synergy between the opponents and the environment, or their allies. For example, a spriggan is a CR3, so you might think that two spriggans could be a interesting challenge for you group. However, a spriggan that has learned to work with two darkmantles could be much more interesting, especially one that sneak attacks with his crossbow from the cover of magical darkness generated by the darkmantles and moves around a lot. Against a group without darkvision, or a group with limited darkvision, this could prove to be far more of a challenge than the basic CR might suggest. Do this in a natural cavern with a "path" worked through it and enough natural stalactites to give a small creature cover, but only but a low wall for a large creature, and it can use the terrain and the darkness to its advantage.
Make your creatures interesting. Jot down quick notes for the encounters: what languages will the creatures use, can anyone understand them, and what will they understand if the party uses. Next, have short ideas of phrases, styles, or anything else that might lend them character. Does not matter if they are foolish, humorous, vile, ugly, or snarky -- intelligent creatures should not be verbally foes. Maybe they call out to their deity to curse the party, maybe they make rude jokes about the inadequacy of the characters sexual lives, maybe some of the opponents joke with each other in a friendly rivalry on who is doing better against the party. Given them all some sort of style, it doesn't have to be much because they may not last long. However, your characters should have a different attitude about goblins, demons, and decapus based as much on the flavor of the encounter as the mechanics of the tactics.
Finally, but sure to describe the setting in all senses. Don't just give the size of the room; what does it smell like? Is it cold and damp? How does it sound?
If you are designing the encounters, make a list of character abilities. Ideally, a custom adventure for a group of characters would include something that threatens them on their weak saves and threatens them on their good saves (give them a chance to shine as well as suffer). Look for class features to find ways to use them. Bard in the party? Look for ways countersong might come into play! Inquisitor in the party? Have it be clear when a long dangerous fight might start so they can feel like they get use of their judgement ability; bonus if you can tie that encounter to their inquisition and god in a way that makes the inquisitor eager to strike. No one in the group with disable device? Have a locked door that they have to figure out another way to open -- break it down, find the key, locate the secret side door, whatever. Paladin or Fighter with bravery? Include a fear effect. You can almost build your adventure by picking one or two elements for each character that is a chance for them to show off, and one or two elements that are difficulties they are weak at, then start figuring out how to tie all your elements together...
Finally, be ready for non-combat use of skills and abilities. If someone put points into Knowledge (History), be sure to have some interesting tidbits about the location and things they find there. Someone have skill in swimming? Maybe a fast flowing river splitting half the dungeon into separate factions is just what you need. Ranger planning to use survival at every intersection? Be ready for those track checks and what sort of information they might pick up.
Ok. That's plenty enough to work through, but I hope that gives you some ideas on how to start.
Some people think of running a game as a chore. Personally, I think being a game master is one of the most challenging but rewarding activities you can do. Putting together the story and setting and entertaining my friends as they overcome the challenges is some of the most fun I have in role playing games. I hope your find it just as enjoyable as I do!