Pinning Knockout + Bite = ?

[Devilkiller]

I play a Feral Gnasher who is going to get a feat next level. I was considering Pinning Knockout since he has the prerequisites. It seems clear that he could maintain the grapple and inflict double his unarmed strike damage. I think he'd also get to apply Constrict damage from his Belt of Anaconda's Coils. What I'm not sure about is whether he could take a -4 on his CMB check to inflict non-lethal damage with his Bite, which is a light weapon, and then double that.

If so that would be really impressive damage though explaining how it looks in roleplaying terms might be a little tricky (maybe he beats you against the floor or something). Anyhow, before deciding if this is a good idea I'd like to verify whether it is a legal one.

[Scott Wilhelm]

So, using Pinning Knockout with your Monk or Brawler unarmed strikes is totally kosher. Neither Monk nor Brawler attack rolls are penalized by doing Nonlethal Damage. Anaconda Coils stack neatly with that. You can also wear Armor Spikes, and do bonus damage.

Incorporating a Bite Attack into this is problematic. 1 Attack is a Standard Action. Mulitple Attacks is a Full Round Action. So if you want to maintain control of the Grapple, I don't think you can attack with your Bite and your Unarmed Strike, and I don't know of any special ability that lets you do so.

Darnit, I just thought of 3, sort of. Grab, which you might get via the Strong Jaw Spell or Alchemal Tentacle, lets you Initiate a Grapple as a Free Action, but it's not clear to me that you can use that to Maintain your Pin. Hamatula Strike would work with your Bite, but I can easily see a GM balking at letting you maintaining your Pin as part of your free Grapple from Hamatula Strike. Both Grab and HS stipulate limited applications to your Grapple Check. With either one of those, you might take a Standard Action to Bite, then take a Free Action to Grapple, then take a Move Action to Pin, then what, use Rapid Grappler to Damage? Witches' White Hair would let you do this okay, and combine with your Bite.

There's another problem, though. There are a lot of failure points in the above attack routines that let your opponent get away, since you are sort of releasing the Grapple to make your Attacks in the hopes of re-establishing it. I think you'd be better off just taking Improved Grapple, Greater Grapple, Rapid Grappler, and Pinning Knockout in order to Grapple, Pin, and Damage your opponent on round 1, then Damage 3X/round with each one doing double damage on subsequent rounds, and after you successfully Initiate, then you maintain the Pin if even 1 of those Grapples is successful as opposed to the other way where any unsuccessful roll lets your victim wiggle free.

When I use Hamatula Strike and Grab free grapples, it's for a catch-and-release Grappler who is only taking advantage of the free grapples to do Armor Spike and Constrict damage. I don't think it's promising to try that with Pinning Knockout.

I mentioned Armor Spikes earlier: might as well poison them.

Sneak Attack Damage works well with Pinning followed by Damage, since Pinned characters lose their Dex Mod to AC. I don't think Sneak Attack Damage doubles with Pinning Knockout, but you can take Sap Adept and Sap Master feats, and magnify your Sneak Attack Damage that way. The Sap' feats require you use Blunt Weapons for Nonlethal Damage, and that's exactly what you're talking about anyway.

We're probably talking about dipping, here, say in Snakebite Striker Brawler, Vivisectionist Alchemist, or maybe something else good for Grappling. Although Snakebite Striker is not a poor choice as a base for a Grappling/Pinning/Damaging character. Also, don't forget the Monastic Legacy Feat, which lets your nonMonk levels count toward increasing Damage. But I haven't given careful thought to the nitty-gritty of your build.

[Scott Wilhelm]

I was just reviewing Feral Gnasher, and I can see what's to like! Using Grab as a Goblin is still problematic because of the size restriction, even with Greater Lockjaw.

I do recommend a level in White Haired Witch, now. White Hair and Bite can be part of the same Full Attack Action. White Hair does not have a size limit, and with both of them, you DONT gain the grappled condition when you achieve the Grapple. White Hair does not have any stipulations on the Grapple, so there is no problem with Maintaining the Pin as a Free Action along with the Hair Attack.

Plus, there is the Protector Familiar Archetype thing we discussed before. One of the really cool things about imposing the Grappled Conditions on your opponent without being Grappled yourself is that you can still make Attacks of Opportunity. So you should totally work in an AoO feature in your build! Make your AoOs with your Hair, and you get those free Grapples!

RaizielDragon called out one of the problems with my suggestions is that Tentacles, animated Hair, and moving tumoral growths turn your character into a real freak, but--I'm no racist--your character is already a Goblin!

[Devilkiller]

I’m really looking for rules clarification/adjudication here rather than build advice. Even if I wanted and got great build advice it would be a little late since the PC is already 14th level. Regarding the rules, I can inflict damage with a light weapon (such as Bite) when I make the CMB check to maintain a grapple. I’m not sure whether I can inflict non-lethal damage by taking a -4 on that CMB check though. I think that’s the crux of the issue from a RAW perspective.

To add a little confusion, I think that depending on how you read the “Damage” option for maintaining the grapple there might not even be a -4 for dealing nonlethal damage with a grapple.

PRD(bold mine) wrote:

Damage: You can inflict damage to your target equal to your unarmed strike, a natural attack, or an attack made with armor spikes or a light or one-handed weapon. This damage can be either lethal or nonlethal.

That might just mean that you’re not required to inflict lethal damage when using an unarmed strike to cause damage this way, but that doesn’t really need to be stated, and the way the sentences are structured makes it sound like the option to deal nonlethal damage might extend to armor spikes along with light and one-handed weapons. All of these things can be used to deal nonlethal damage even without grappling, but maybe while you’re grappling there’s not a -4 to deal nonlethal damage? Then again, maybe the rules are just unclear or I perceive what I want to believe.

Another way to achieve similar ends with fewer questions might be to wear a Cruel and Merciful Amulet of Mighty Fists, which would have some comedic value as well. I don’t tend to Pin foes very often with this PC since I can already make them prone and shaken and should soon be making them sickened too. I also do have some ways to take advantage of AoOs while grappling such as maintaining the grapple as a Move action and using my Standard for Total Defense with Crane Riposte. Combined with Body Shield this sort of stuff makes some great slapstick moments.

[Scott Wilhelm]

Devilkiller wrote:

I’m really looking for rules clarification/adjudication here rather than build advice.

Well, bless your heart: you got both!

Devilkiller wrote:

What I'm not sure about is whether he could take a -4 on his CMB check to inflict non-lethal damage with his Bite, which is a light weapon, and then double that.

Yes, you take the -4. The Bite Attack normally does Lethal Damage unless you have some special ability for it to do some other kind. I think there is a Feat called Bludgeoner that will let you do that.

Devilkiller wrote:

maybe while you’re grappling there’s not a -4 to deal nonlethal damage?

I'm pretty sure about this. A Grapple is a Combat Maneuver. Combat Maneuvers are Special Attacks. Special Attacks are Attacks. And the roll you make when you make an Attack is an Attack Roll. Grappling in particular benefits from things such as the Weapon Focus Feat and the True Strike Spell. It would suffer from the -4 nonlethal damage thing.

And you can't use the Grab Ability to Maintain the Pin after the regular Bite Attack. The Grab Ability will let you re-initiate the Grapple, but not maintain the Pin. You can Pin that way.

I guess you could do Bite Damage instead of Unarmed Strike Damage with your Damage phase. But your GM should be rightly grumpy if you tell him you are Biting for nonlethal damage AFTER you make that attack roll, because you should have taken that -4.

But I really don't like to just cluck and tsk and tell people it can't be done. After I tell you that what you have in mind won't work, I always then try to help you find legal ways to duplicate the effect of what you want. I'm a Mythbuster that way.

[Devilkiller]

Maybe it would clarify things somehow to point out that I'm not actually making a Bite attack. I'm just using my maintain to inflict damage with a light weapon (the Bite). Anyhow, I think it sounds like you'd agree I should be able to take -4 on my CMB check while maintaining the grapple to do nonlethal Bite damage and then double that with Pinning Knockout. That's what I was originally hoping to determine, and I guess it looks like it works at least from a RAW perspective.

I've also thought of another related rules question which could come up whether I take Pinning Knockout or not. The Improved Lockjaw ability prevents you from gaining the grappled condition when you're controlling the grapple with Lockjaw. It doesn't explicitly say whether it prevents you from losing your Dex bonus while you're pinning a foe though. If not that could be kind of a showstopper since this PC has a +5 Dex bonus. Granted, the Pin would stop all attacks from the pinned foe, but taking a -5 AC against everybody else might be a bad decision.

[Onyewu]

Devilkiller wrote:

If so that would be really impressive damage though explaining how it looks in roleplaying terms might be a little tricky ...

I imagine it like one of the big cats--they bite the throat and squeeze until their prey passes out. Then it's snack time! You know, the lethal ripping and tearing of delicious (insert your favorite tasty animal here) flesh.

[Scott Wilhelm]

Devilkiller wrote:

Maybe it would clarify things somehow to point out that I'm not actually making a Bite attack. I'm just using my maintain to inflict damage with a light weapon (the Bite).

I was confused by that at first.

Devilkiller wrote:

I think it sounds like you'd agree I should be able to take -4 on my CMB check while maintaining the grapple to do nonlethal Bite damage and then double that with Pinning Knockout.

Yes, and then you can take the Bludgeoner Feat, and you won't take that -4, anymore, either.

Devilkiller wrote:

The Improved Lockjaw ability prevents you from gaining the grappled condition when you're controlling the grapple with Lockjaw. It doesn't explicitly say whether it prevents you from losing your Dex bonus while you're pinning a foe though.

But the only reason why you would be losing Dex is if you had the Grappled Condition, and you don't! Why else would you be losing your Dex Mod?

I think the specificity is adequate, here: the Grappled and Pinned conditions impose Dex penalties. Improved Lockjaw lets you Give without Receiving, and it is more Blessed to Give than to Receive.

[Devilkiller]

I don’t think Bludgeoner would be worth it here. My PC has the Raging Grappler rage power, so by the time he has somebody pinned they're also prone (except I guess for stuff like snakes which can be grappled but can’t be prone). Add in the penalties for being Pinned and the CMB check should be pretty easy even with a -8 for Power Attack and nonlethal damage.

In any event, the PC will probably be taking a Barbarian level and therefore will only have 1 feat to choose. I’ll definitely have to consider Pinning KO since I haven’t seen a lot of other feats which look interesting on their own. Ability Focus (Terrifying Howl) might help cover some DC loss from multiclassing, but without a way to intimidate multiple foes per round it might be overinvesting in that particular tactic. I’m seriously considering just taking Extra Rage Power for +2 DR/-. At least I feel more confident that the Pinning KO route is legal now if that’s the way I choose to go though.