Improved Familiar Archetypes

[Hazrond]

So i have a thought, if you have a way of gaining an improved familiar WITHOUT using the feat (for PURELY example purposes i will mention Asmodean Advocate and the Pact Wizard) do they gain Speak with Animals of Its Kind to trade out with familiar archetypes, since if i read this correctly its the feat that takes that away?

[MichaelCullen]

In my opinion the short answer is no.
The given example of the pact wizard gains the following ability at level 7

pact wizard wrote:

At 7th level, a pact wizard's familiar reveals its true form, automatically transforming into an outsider improved familiar of the chosen subtype.

Improved familiar says the following.

Improved Familiar wrote:

improved familiars otherwise use the rules for regular familiars, with two exceptions: if the creature's type is something other than animal, its type does not change; and improved familiars do not gain the ability to speak with other creatures of their kind (although many of them already have the ability to communicate).

Familiar Archtypes says

familiar Archtypes wrote:

Animal archetypes modify familiars' standard abilities, similar to how class archetypes modify player characters' class features. These archetypes function by swapping out certain abilities that are common to standard familiars and replacing them with new abilities tailored to a particular theme. Where levels are referenced in archetype descriptions, they refer to the class level of the PC master in whichever class grants the familiar as a class feature.

Selecting Archtypes says

selecting Archtypes wrote:

When an archetype includes multiple alternate class features, a character must take all of them—often blocking the character from ever gaining certain standard class features, but replacing them with other options.

[Maezer]

I think they probably can... since the Chosen One (Paladin Archetype) seems to get a improved familiar with emissary template. All from the same source book.

True Form (ex) is different from bonus feat Improved Familiar you ask me. That said I'd clear it with a GM before trying it, as Dev posts have stated they didn't intend for improved familiars to have the templates.

[Byakko]

Asmodean Advocate:

Quote:

At 8th level, an Asmodean advocate can choose an imp familiar as though she had the Improved Familiar feat.

Pact Wizard:

Quote:

At 7th level, a pact wizard's familiar reveals its true form, automatically transforming into an outsider improved familiar of the chosen subtype.

Seems pretty clear that both these abilities are supposed to function as per the improved familiar feat, and thus would gain all the advantages and disadvantages of the feat.

So, thankfully, no loophole here as far as I tell, with a reasonable interpretation.

[Melkiador]

There wasn't an original intent to ban improved familiars from archetypes. It was more of an accident that the devs decided they were ok with.

Emissary is the one that doesn't trade out speak with creatures of own type. Regardless, the chosen one would be a case of specific trumping general. It has an improved emissary because it says it does, even if that had gone against the general rule.

[Melkiador]

The wasp familiar is another odd case. Although it can use the stats of an improved familiar, it is still a wasp.

[ElterAgo]

As I read them, the emissary and sage are the only 2 archtypes that can be used on improved familiars. {drat!}