And maybe how do other Monk abilities work too...
EDIT: I think it should purchase Feral Combat Training and as FoB works like TWF i got more confused, cause i don't know how TWF works for Monsters.
EDIT 2: I think if it an adult red dragon gets Feral Combat Training (bite) and one monk level, its attack could be:
bite +23 (2d8+12), 2 claws +22 (2d6+8), 2 wings +20 (1d8+4), tail slap +20 (2d6+12)
or
bite +21/+21/+16/+11/+6 (2d8+12)...
or is it
bite +21/+21 (2d8+12), 2 claws +20 (2d6+8), 2 wings +18 (1d8+4), tail slap +18 (2d6+12)???
Same as a human, just adjust damage for size.
Same as a human, just adjust damage for size.
So it does mean it just get the whole attacks for high BAB + an additional attack... and what happens with the other attacks?
Same as a human, just adjust damage for size.So it does mean it just get the whole attacks for high BAB + an additional attack... and what happens with the other attacks?
Monk is a sub-par choice for character class (for a dragon)-Fighter is WAY better (feats and fast BAB progression, good hitdice).
Going monk basically gives nothing good other than saves, increased move and slightly improved AC.
You don't stack flurry with natural attacks, if that's what you were thinking.
A monk cannot use any weapon other than an unarmed strike or a special monk weapon as part of a flurry of blows. A monk with natural weapons cannot use such weapons as part of a flurry of blows, nor can he make natural attacks in addition to his flurry of blows attacks.
So a dragon would have to flurry flurry and stop. No natural attacks. Thats generally a bad bargain they're better off using what apsu gave them.
I think if it an adult red dragon gets Feral Combat Training (bite) and one monk level, its attack could be:
bite +23 (2d8+12), 2 claws +22 (2d6+8), 2 wings +20 (1d8+4), tail slap +20 (2d6+12)
or
bite +21/+21/+16/+11/+6 (2d8+12)...
or is it
bite +21/+21 (2d8+12), 2 claws +20 (2d6+8), 2 wings +18 (1d8+4), tail slap +18 (2d6+12)???
(Maybe i was ninja'd)
A monk cannot use any weapon other than an unarmed strike or a special monk weapon as part of a flurry of blows. A monk with natural weapons cannot use such weapons as part of a flurry of blows, nor can he make natural attacks in addition to his flurry of blows attacks.
So a dragon would have to flurry flurry and stop. No natural attacks. Thats generally a bad bargain they're better off using what apsu gave them.
Not really, BigNorseWolf, using the Feral Combat Training (claws) the dragon can Flurry with its claws and deal its claws normal damage... maybe they can advance too to the next damage step, so not a bad trade-off accounting all attacks deal full Str bonus.
Not really, BigNorseWolf, using the Feral Combat Training (claws) the dragon can Flurry with its claws and deal its claws normal damage... maybe they can advance too to the next damage step, so not a bad trade-off accounting all attacks deal full Str bonus.A monk cannot use any weapon other than an unarmed strike or a special monk weapon as part of a flurry of blows. A monk with natural weapons cannot use such weapons as part of a flurry of blows, nor can he make natural attacks in addition to his flurry of blows attacks.
So a dragon would have to flurry flurry and stop. No natural attacks. Thats generally a bad bargain they're better off using what apsu gave them.
You only apply the feat to one natural attack type, not all. Additionally, unlike feats that allow you to take it multiple times, this one does not have the text allowing it... so you could take it once and apply it to one natural weapon type (such as wings) but not all of them.
Natural attacks don't advance in damage because of Monk levels.
Not really, BigNorseWolf, using the Feral Combat Training (claws) the dragon can Flurry with its claws and deal its claws normal damage... maybe they can advance too to the next damage step, so not a bad trade-off accounting all attacks deal full Str bonus.A monk cannot use any weapon other than an unarmed strike or a special monk weapon as part of a flurry of blows. A monk with natural weapons cannot use such weapons as part of a flurry of blows, nor can he make natural attacks in addition to his flurry of blows attacks.
So a dragon would have to flurry flurry and stop. No natural attacks. Thats generally a bad bargain they're better off using what apsu gave them.
That would be claw +strength claw +strength vs Bite +str and 1/2 claw +strength Claw +strength and possibly more attacks, the latter with no penalty to hit.
Not really, BigNorseWolf, using the Feral Combat Training (claws) the dragon can Flurry with its claws and deal its claws normal damage... maybe they can advance too to the next damage step, so not a bad trade-off accounting all attacks deal full Str bonus.You only apply the feat to one natural attack type, not all. Additionally, unlike feats that allow you to take it multiple times, this one does not have the text allowing it... so you could take it once and apply it to one natural weapon type (such as wings) but not all of them.
I agree with that, but Flurry of Blows says "These attacks can be any combination of unarmed strikes and attacks with a monk special weapon (he does not need to use two weapons to utilize this ability)"; meaning the whole flurry can be made just with those claw attacks. The rule also says "a monk applies his full Strength bonus to his damage rolls for all successful attacks made with flurry of blows, whether the attacks are made with an off-hand or with a weapon wielded in both hands."
Let me try:
a) Adult Blue Dragon + Monk 1 + Weapon Focus (claw) + Feral Combat Training (claw):
claw +22/+22/+17/+12/+7 (2d6+8)
b) Adult Blue Dragon + Monk 1 + Weapon Focus (bite) + Feral Combat Training (bite):
bite +22/+22/+17/+12/+7 (2d8+8)
Natural attacks don't advance in damage because of Monk levels.
I think you are right. But then i don't get why this: "If the creature uses unarmed strikes, it deals damage as if it were a monk with a level equal to its HD (maximum 20 HD). A creature with 10 or more HD that uses natural attacks increases the damage dealt by all of its natural attacks by one die step instead" in the class templates for monsters rules. But maybe they're just quick rules.
I have to admit the idea you have about a Fighter dragon could be much better... let me try:
a) Adult Blue Dragon + Multiattack + Fighter 1 + Improved Unarmed Strike + Weapon Focus (bite) + Feral Combat Training (Bite):
1 bite +24/+19/+14/+9 (2d8+12), 2 claws +21 (2d6+4), 2 wings +21 (1d8+4), tail slap +21 (2d6+12)
b) Adult Blue Dragon + Multiattack + Fighter 1 + Improved Unarmed Strike + Weapon Focus (claw) + Feral Combat Training (claws):
1 claw +24/+19/+14/+9 (2d6+8), 1 claw +21 (2d6+4), bite +21 (2d8+4), 2 wings +21 (1d8+4), tail slap +21 (2d6+12)
OMG!
What if i add TWF?
So FCT on the fighter doesn't give you iteratives with your bites. Only the monk lets you attack with the selected natural attack more than once.
Thats a monk creature template. Not the same thing.
An adult blue dragon with FCT (bite) and a level of Monk could flurry with that bite. That flurry would look like this:
+22/+22/+17/+12/+7 (2d8+12)
Adding Monk and non-Monk BAB FAQ
Using the same weapon multiple times in a flurry FAQ
FCT: Benefit: Choose one of your natural weapons. While using the selected natural weapon, you can apply the effects of feats that have Improved Unarmed Strike as a prerequisite.
Special: If you are a monk, you can use the selected natural weapon with your flurry of blows class feature.
Same as a human, just adjust damage for size.So it does mean it just get the whole attacks for high BAB + an additional attack... and what happens with the other attacks?Monk is a sub-par choice for character class (for a dragon)-Fighter is WAY better (feats and fast BAB progression, good hitdice).
Going monk basically gives nothing good other than saves, increased move and slightly improved AC.
You don't stack flurry with natural attacks, if that's what you were thinking.
Monk has one advantage for a dragon- it doesn't have to go to the effort to find chainmail pants to get AC. It just adds wisdom.
Besides that? Yeah, not much help. I would advise slayer myself. Not for that classic fighter hate on this board- natural attack builds are just bad for fighters since they prefer to use weapon specialization which doesn't play well with the 4-5 different types of attacks. Slayer is more agnostic.
A dragon cavalier might be fun. It is both silly (a knight in scaly armor) and has mechanical advantages (cause they get extra damage on every hit and dragons have a lot of natural attacks)
So FCT on the fighter doesn't give you iteratives with your bites. Only the monk lets you attack with the selected natural attack more than once.
Ok, let's fix it:
Adult Blue Dragon + Multiattack + Fighter 1 + Improved Unarmed Strike + Weapon Focus (IUS):
IUS +24/+19/+14/+9 (1d6+8), 1 bite +21 (2d8+4), 1 claw +21 (2d6+4), 2 wings +21 (1d8+4), tail slap +21 (2d6+12)
Monk has one advantage for a dragon- it doesn't have to go to the effort to find chainmail pants to get AC. It just adds wisdom.
Besides that? Yeah, not much help.
Yes i'm realizing to add the Monk Creature template to the dragon is a better idea.
From:
Str 27, Dex 10, Con 21, Int 16, Wis 17, Cha 16
AC: 28, touch 8, flat-footed 28 (+20 natural, –2 size)
Melee: 1 bite +23 (2d8+12), 2 claws +22 (2d6+8), 2 wings +20 (1d8+4), tail slap +20 (2d6+12)
To:
Str 27, Dex 14, Con 21, Int 16, Wis 21, Cha 16
AC: 40, touch 21, flat-footed 28 (40?) (+20 natural, –2 size, +2 Dex, +6 monk bonus, +5 Wis)
Melee: 2 bites +23/+18 (3d6+12), 2 claws +22 (2d8+8), 2 wings +20 (1d10+4), tail slap +20 (2d8+12)
Gains: Improved Unarmed Strike and Improved Evasion
I would advise slayer myself. Not for that classic fighter hate on this board- natural attack builds are just bad for fighters since they prefer to use weapon specialization which doesn't play well with the 4-5 different types of attacks. Slayer is more agnostic.
A dragon cavalier might be fun. It is both silly (a knight in scaly armor) and has mechanical advantages (cause they get extra damage on every hit and dragons have a lot of natural attacks)
Well, except if that dragon uses a manufactured weapon.
I'd check those classes, i became curious.
A cavalier would not really work... cause the dragon can't find a suitable mount for itself...
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A cavalier would not really work... cause the dragon can't find a suitable mount for itself...
Well, besides the fact that there are numerous arhcetypes that lose the mount, you could just go without one on the vanilla cavalier.
Sure, there are a few abilities meant for mounted combat, but that isn't all there is to the class. You have challenge and order abilities, as well as tactician.
But really, I am just looking at it as 'putting extra damage on something that is already frighteningly strong.'
Monk dragon sounds excellent. I'd put it in an imperial dragon myself for theme.
I like the cavalier idea... But it is a different idea as the one i had in mind. I wanted a dragon with improved AC, better combat reflexes, ignoring some damage, and with more attacks in the same round.
Druid dragon. Cast barkskin on yourself, burn 6 magic fangs when you wake up, and cast strongjaw on yourself when you really want to go to down.
I like the cavalier idea... But it is a different idea as the one i had in mind. I wanted a dragon with improved AC, better combat reflexes, ignoring some damage, and with more attacks in the same round.
Hmm...there are a few orders that give AC or DR, but that is mainly against the target of your challenge.
Great if your opponents are one big melee guy and his supporters. Not so great otherwise.
Oh, and thinking about mountless archetypes, daring champion gives you scaling bonus to AC when in light/no armor, and it has parry/riposte for both defense and offense. Sure, you can't using precise strike, but hey- you are a dragon. Your actual attacks are already fine in and of themselves.
Of course, this could just be me pushing this.
Make it an Invulnerable Rager barbarian dragon with Come and Get Me. Hell, take the beast totems for eventual pounce and more natural armor, and get the Stalwart feats for even more DR. You won't care about AC at that point. Give it Spell Eater as well, cause why not.
Make the build like you would play a barbarian. Just go nuts.
Make it an Invulnerable Rager barbarian dragon with Come and Get Me. Hell, take the beast totems for eventual pounce and more natural armor, and get the Stalwart feats for even more DR. You won't care about AC at that point. Give it Spell Eater as well, cause why not.
Make the build like you would play a barbarian. Just go nuts.
I am not sure if he can go quite that far. Looking at some of the stats, he is taking a young adult red, and then just adding one level on it so he can upgrade it. It is already 15 hd, and CR 13. So adding 10 class levels can be...iffy.
Thinking about it, my focus on cavalier might not be appropriate either. There will be some boost, but monk would have provided mor explosive results, since +2 AC. Maybe grab something like ranger with favored enemy (human) on top of that and it would be fine.
I would tend away from barbarian for just a small boost, since dragons tend to be casters too. Even with the somewhat limited selection at this CR, I can see things like young adult reds having the ability to see through smoke and the ability to use pyrotechnics.
Well, to add 10 levels would be interesting; that'd make an unexpectedly harder to kill adult dragon.
But i'm just adding 1 monk level to easy test the concept.
I like the other suggestions, a lot. In fact what i want is to make a bunch of dragons with some class levels, they use to polymorph into humanoids and be able to use the class abilities when they are in small places or just for fun. They already existed in a 3.5E i was GMing and now i'm porting those NPCs to PF for the PCs to meet those "Oh Gods, is one of those dragons" again. They ended earning humanoid class levels when infiltrating humanoid societies.
I like the barbarian and fighter dragons, the rage and the bunch of combat feats are nice. The druid dragon too, but she needs a lot of druid levels to be on par with her arcane spellcasting, and i'm still trying to understand the changes of the druid class.
Now i'm testing the dragon/monk concept, but the rules on monks are so strict in PF to make it optimally work. I think the unchained monk would work better for this scenario... It just add an additional attack at full base attack with no further penalties and the ki pool would help a lot... I was just thinking in giving the dragon the monk template, then levels in Uchained monk and boom! Two extra attacks (1 from template, 1 from umonk) and improved damage on natural attacks...