Are spellcasting services available literally "during" a scenario at any time?

[aboyd]

Assume the PCs are in a town capable of getting spellcasting services.

Question about a contradiction in the PFS rules. Hoping for a FAQ or at least a PFS staff member response. In the PFS rulebook, page 25:

Quote:

Generally speaking, you can pay to have spells cast on you at any time during the scenario so long as you’re in a settlement or have access to a temple, shrine, or wandering mystic.

I added bold & italics to highlight the key phrases. It seems to show that a PC can get spells cast literally during the scenario. Since it says "at any time" the player could say mid-game, "This is the time, right now, when I'm getting spellcasting services."

However, consider the next sentence in the PFS rulebook:

Quote:

Page 163 of the Core Rulebook covers the rules for purchasing spellcasting services and the associated costs are listed in the Spellcasting and Services table on page 159.

So after some specific text about when you can buy spellcasting, it follows with a citation of the general rules. Those rules give a 24-hour waiting period. So, is the first sentence about "any time" and "during the scenario" just unfortunate accidental text and the general spellcasting rules win, or is PFS offering specific text that trumps the general rules?

At stake would be things like this:

• If spellcasting services are available literally during the scenario at any time, PCs who are losing a fight with an incorporeal monster in town could run away, pay to get Mage Armor cast, and continue the fight with better AC vs. incorporeal. Or, players who cannot defeat a Deeper Darkness spell could run away, use gold to purchase some kind of light spell -- perhaps at a high caster level if needed -- and then return to the fight (or at least return to mop up the mess).
  
• If spellcasting services are only available with 24 hour delay, all those players going into Bonekeep & Emerald Spire with Heroes Feast or other long-term buffs (from spellcasting services) need to be shut down.
  

Does Pathfinder Society allow spells to be purchased mid-scenario, as needed? Please, hit the FAQ link near the top of this post. Thanks.

[Quintin Verassi]

Yes, but be careful. Running away during a fight to find spellcasting services (which I believe has a time to find them and cap based on the level of spell and spellcaster per population) may cause the GM to rule that your character is out of the combat. I would, as a GM even, if the enemies had enough superiority have them chase you.

About the 24 hour delay:
I don't know; this is simply because this has never come up at my table for a non instantaneous spell. People (in my experience) want curing, atonement, continual flame, etc.

[DrParty06]

Spellcasting is available and often needed mid-scenario, with the caveat that you mentioned in you first quote "so long as you’re in a settlement or have access to a temple, shrine, or wandering mystic."

Effects that stopping your mission and getting that spell cast rather than continuing may have are up to GM discretion.

It's assumed that in a large enough settlement you can find someone who has the spell prepared.

Core Rulebook wrote:

...not every town or village has a spellcaster of sufficient level to cast any spell. In general, you must travel to a small town (or larger settlement) to be reasonably assured of finding a spellcaster capable of casting 1st-level spells, a large town for 2nd-level spells, a small city for 3rd- or 4th-level spells, a large city for 5th- or 6th-level spells, and a metropolis for 7th- or 8th-level spells. Even a metropolis isn't guaranteed to have a local spellcaster able to cast 9th-level spells.

[GM Lamplighter]

The 24-hour waiting period is not waived by the PFS rules. But, it's a delay between when you ask for the spell and when you can get it, so this shouldn't affect hero's feast or other pre-game buffs much. But some scenarios have a timer, and leaving for a day plus travel time either way might mean the scenario just ends right there.

[FLite]

I would say it depends what you are getting cast, and how large the settlement is.

If you want cure light or lesser restoration, and you go into a temple in any major town, then unless there is a major disaster under way, someone there probably has them preped.

Also, going in with a long term buff is fine as long as you have time to prep. Go set up an appointment for right before you leave, go do your shopping, prep your spells, and then go get buffed. It is only a real problem if there is a ticking clock or travel time to your destination.

[aboyd]

So, since you guys are already saying contradictory things (pretty much exactly as the previous topics about this went), would you mind hitting the FAQ link so we can see which of you the management decides to side with? I mean, if you don't think it's worthy of that I certainly don't want to compel you, but if you're feeling generous, I'd appreciate it.

[Iammars]

Both your results are absurd because you're not taking into account what's actually going on. When you buy spellcasting services, you're finding someone who either has the spell prepped or can prep the spell for you the next time they prepare spells.

So as to your first point - in the middle of combat, is there someone in the immediate vicinity that can cast mage armor on you? Likely not unless a member of your party has access to mage armor. The delay in finding someone who can cast mage armor will likely take you out of combat, given that PF combat takes less than a minute of in-game time.

As for the second point - sure, the PCs may have to wait 24 hours to get the heroes' feast, but they still get the duration after they cast it. They may have to walk back to the dungeon which will eat up some of their duration, but unless they have some information that they need to go in right now, they likely are fine waiting up to a day. There is no problem here.

A note about Bonekeep...:

There is a 5 hour time limit on the Bonekeeps, but that's mostly an out-of-game time limit. The major way that it gets enforced in-game is to prevent people from trying to rest to regain resources during the dungeon. You could use this plus the spellcasting services rules to prevent people from getting spellcasting services before going into the dungeon, but that's a little silly given the political power of the Pathfinder Society in Absalom and a little silly of a ruling to make. Bonekeep is a dungeon that really requires good group tactics, but most of the time the group is sitting down with each other for the first time. Things like everyone pitching in for a heroes' feast should be encouraged - it helps build that teamwork from the very beginning and will help them be more successful.

TL;DR - there's no contradiction when you actually apply common sense to what's going on. No FAQ needed.

[nosig]

aboyd wrote:

So, since you guys are already saying contradictory things (pretty much exactly as the previous topics about this went), would you mind hitting the FAQ link so we can see which of you the management decides to side with? I mean, if you don't think it's worthy of that I certainly don't want to compel you, but if you're feeling generous, I'd appreciate it.

ok... I am missing something.

I read all the posts leading up to this one, and all the posters seemed to me to be saying the same thing... so, where do you see "...you guys are already saying contradictory things ..."?

All posters seem to be in agreement. Where are you seeing them saying contradictory things?

[nosig]

here, this may help (bolding mine)...

... you can pay to have spells cast on you at any time during the scenario long as you’re in a settlement or have access to a temple, shrine, or wandering mystic.

Can your PC access a temple, shrine, or wondering mystic (holy man, healer, some form of spellcaster)? The kind of person who would be willing/able to cast a spell or a price... for your PC. This might require them to PERPARE the spell, which might take as much as 24 Hours...

But, if your PC has access to a temple (that normally sells the spell), and wont get arrested/killed/eaten/sold into bondage for visiting said temple, you should be able to buy the spell casting you want. After that spell is cast, it's duration starts.

[aboyd]

James, I did not mean to imply that this could be done in combat rounds. If the spellcasting takes 30 minutes of running through town to the mage's academy, that's one thing. If it takes 30 minutes followed by a 24 hour delay, that's entirely another thing. For example from The Darkest Vengeance:

Spoiler:

In the GM thread for that module, there are people talking about how the players simply could not, at all, defeat the Deeper Darkness. The GMs allowed the players to pull back and get high CL light spells cast in town, and then return to the cave system. Granted, this might take 20, maybe 40, minutes. But for some GMs on that forum topic, that was short enough to allow for at least partial success of the module. However, if we impose the 24 hour wait period, then of course it's too late and failure conditions apply.

Or, regarding Bonekeep, which you mentioned and which prompted this topic:

Spoiler:

We have GMs using the 24 hour delay to shut down Heroes Feast and the like. So they should do that, or the teamwork should be encouraged?

[Drahliana Moonrunner]

aboyd wrote:

Question about a contradiction in the PFS rules. Hoping for a FAQ or at least a PFS staff member response. In the PFS rulebook, page 25:

Quote:

Generally speaking, you can pay to have spells cast on you at any time during the scenario so long as you’re in a settlement or have access to a temple, shrine, or wandering mystic.

I added bold & italics to highlight the key phrases. It seems to show that a PC can get spells cast literally during the scenario. Since it says "at any time" the player could say mid-game, "This is the time, right now, when I'm getting spellcasting services."

.

Note the bolded part. Whether or not you have ACCESS is the qualifier. If you're in a dungeon, the Judge can rightfully say you don't have access.

[aboyd]

nosig wrote:

I read all the posts leading up to this one, and all the posters seemed to me to be saying the same thing... so, where do you see "...you guys are already saying contradictory things ..."?

Sure. Here:

This seems to suggest that getting spells right away mid-scenario is OK:

DrParty06 wrote:

Spellcasting is available and often needed mid-scenario

This suggests that the 24 hour delay is imposed:

GM Lamplighter wrote:

The 24-hour waiting period is not waived by the PFS rules.

[Belafon]

All the posters have said the same thing.
1. Yes, you can buy spellcasting services during a scenario.
2. That means getting to the location of the caster (which may require travel time).
2a. Note that small towns have an upper limit on spell level available.
3. The spell may not be available that day even if there is a caster of appropriate level that you reach (if they didn't prepare it that day). Some GM interpretation required.

Personally...:

I usually treat all healing (and disease/curse/etc.) as being available that day if the city is large enough to support a caster of that level. Ditto for "trade" spells (like make whole). If it is a fairly large town where there are literally "magic shoppes" on a corner or two I assume the wizard/cleric has left some spell slots open to provide for customers' needs. 15 minutes prep time required.

You are far less likely to find what you need if you run across a wandering mystic or in a small town where the priestess may always prepare the same spells every day.

[Muser]

aww crap, that waiting period could change everything.

I've had player chars raised mid-session between encounters, for instance. People buying protective buffs just before dungeons, etc.

[nosig]

aboyd wrote:

nosig wrote:

I read all the posts leading up to this one, and all the posters seemed to me to be saying the same thing... so, where do you see "...you guys are already saying contradictory things ..."?

Sure. Here:

This seems to suggest that getting spells right away mid-scenario is OK:

DrParty06 wrote:

Spellcasting is available and often needed mid-scenario

This suggests that the 24 hour delay is imposed:

GM Lamplighter wrote:

The 24-hour waiting period is not waived by the PFS rules.

??

that is two different things.
a) Yes, you can buy spellcasting. (I have played in games where spells could not be bought).
b) There may be some delay (as much as 24 hours) for a specific spell you require.

[Iammars]

aboyd's first spoiler:
If you want a qualification on if you must wait 24 hours or if you can find stuff in the time frame of 20-40 minutes, then you're not going to get one and you don't want one. That's a determination that the GM makes based on the current situation, including how populated the location is, the current attitude of the location towards the PCs/Society, and how rare of a spell the PCs are asking for. If you ask the Society Leadership to tie the GMs hands and don't let them make that decision, then it's only going to lead to more illogical situations happening in game. Let the GM discretion be.

aboyd's second spoiler:

Spoiler:

There's nothing in that post you linked to that references Bonekeep. I don't understand why you linked to it.

[aboyd]

Kevin, since you think all the responses are the same, I am missing something. So maybe you could answer these scenarios:

• PC is starting Bonekeep and wants Heroes' Feast. The 24 hour delay shuts down this option. True?
  
• PC is in the Drownyard, and gets ruined by Deeper Darkness. PC retreats, gets light spell, and returns. The lack of 24 hour delay allows this to potentially save them from failing the module. True?
  
• Players are in sewers in Absalom, get surprised by monsters with hardness/energy/something, pull back to get spells cast by professionals, and then return to the sewers. Is it a 24 hour delay, in which case the monsters are gone? Or is it a 20 minute delay, in which case the monsters maybe got healing from their local tribesman, but otherwise are still around?
  

EDIT: Never mind. See below:

James McTeague wrote:

If you ask the Society Leadership to tie the GMs hands and don't let them make that decision, then it's only going to lead to more illogical situations happening in game. Let the GM discretion be.

Ah. Got it. You guys are suggesting that the answer is: everyone agrees this is down to table variation, and it's good that way, so stop trying to get a ruling on it.

OK. Done. I no longer wish for a FAQ. Please do not click that FAQ link.

Thanks everyone!

[Drahliana Moonrunner]

aboyd wrote:

Kevin, since you think all the responses are the same, I am missing something. So maybe you could answer these scenarios:

• PC is starting Bonekeep and wants Heroes' Feast. The 24 hour delay shuts down this option. True?
  
• PC is in the Drownyard, and gets ruined by Deeper Darkness. PC retreats, gets light spell, and returns. The lack of 24 hour delay allows this to potentially save them from failing the module. True?
  
• Players are in sewers in Absalom, get surprised by monsters with hardness/energy/something, pull back to get spells cast by professionals, and then return to the sewers. Is it a 24 hour delay, in which case the monsters are gone? Or is it a 20 minute delay, in which case the monsters maybe got healing from their local tribesman, but otherwise are still around?
  

The light spell scenario would likely run into the problem of the duration expiring before the party returns to the dungeon.

Also many PFS scenarios are time dependent and you don't have a spare 24 hours once the main action begins.

[FLite]

Aboyd, there is no contradiction. There is a judgement call. GMs are required to use their judgement.

1. Bonekeep starts in Absolom, the center of the world where you can find everything. You can probably find at least one local who has got a slot free to prep heroes feast. In a home game I might charge you a 10% premium, but in PFS, that would be more drama than I feel like dealing with.

2. Again, Absolom. Setting aside for the moment what sort of light spell you are getting that will counter deeper darkness, since you can't buy heightened continual light... Yeah, you can probably find it. (Okay, you could buy daylight and some non magical torches I guess.)

3. Yup probably okay. But the monsters (assuming intelligent) also had that same amount of time to prepare ambushes, get buffs if available...

As a general rule of thumb, I would say treat the settlement as one size smaller for purposes of finding someone with an open spell slot they will prep for you (15 minute + travel time delay) or two sizes smaller for finding someone with a common spell already prepped (Just travel time)

[aboyd]

Muser wrote:

aww crap, that waiting period could change everything.

I've had player chars raised mid-session between encounters, for instance. People buying protective buffs just before dungeons, etc.

Same here. That's why I raised the question. It seems a lot of people are hung up on other aspects (is the PC in town? Is the duration long enough?) but are missing the core question: do I get the spell right away or after 24 hours?

The answer seems to be: table variation, but we like it that way.

As a player, I don't really like that. However, as a GM, it's great. Since I'm very by-the-rules, I'm just going to say that the rules say 24 hour delay, so 24 hour delay it is. I'll point players at the Core Rulebook if they're questioning it. That way I can be consistent, even if other GMs are all over the map.

[FLite]

I don't know. If I were in absolom, and the GM said "sorry, you have to wait 24 hours for anyone on the street of the gods to prep cure light wounds" I think I would get a little bit grouchy. (Especially since the different religeons and chapters recover spells at different times of day, and all religeons can be found in absolom, it would be highly unlikely that someone was not getting their spells back within the next 4-6 hours. Especially if it was close to twilight or dawn.)

The answer is table variation, not because we like it, but because the answer really is going to be different in different places and different times of day.

[aboyd]

Jared Thaler wrote:

If I were in absolom, and the GM said "sorry, you have to wait 24 hours for anyone on the street of the gods to prep cure light wounds" I think I would get a little bit grouchy.

And if you're in Absolom and the GM says, "You have to wait 24 hours for anyone on the street of the gods to prep Life Bubble, and you'll fail the module if you wait 24 hours" -- then? Still grouchy? It's a 5th level spell.

[Drahliana Moonrunner]

Jared Thaler wrote:

I don't know. If I were in absolom, and the GM said "sorry, you have to wait 24 hours for anyone on the street of the gods to prep cure light wounds" I think I would get a little bit grouchy. (Especially since the different religeons and chapters recover spells at different times of day, and all religeons can be found in absolom, it would be highly unlikely that someone was not getting their spells back within the next 4-6 hours. Especially if it was close to twilight or dawn.)

The answer is table variation, not because we like it, but because the answer really is going to be different in different places and different times of day.

Which would not be an issue unless you insist on doing all your shopping at Neg Channelers Are Us. since standard clerics can spontaneously convert their spells to cure spells.

[TwilightKnight]

Bonekeep:

Bonekeep and the two sequels are probably not good examples of "normal" gameplay. GMs are encouraged to take out all the stops and play the encounters as hard as possible. The scenario is designed to challenge you to the limits, even kill you, and if you can simply avoid the danger by seeking help from outside sources, you're missing the point. Not to mention, once you are in the dungeon, you cannot leave without ending the session. So unless you know ahead of time what spell services you need, it doesn't matter. I suppose an argument could be made to have a spell service cast on you before you enter, but that's sort of blind and nothing short of hours (or longer) duration would likely be effective, due to the travel time involved from Absalom to the site.

[FLite]

Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:

Jared Thaler wrote:

I don't know. If I were in absolom, and the GM said "sorry, you have to wait 24 hours for anyone on the street of the gods to prep cure light wounds" I think I would get a little bit grouchy. (Especially since the different religeons and chapters recover spells at different times of day, and all religeons can be found in absolom, it would be highly unlikely that someone was not getting their spells back within the next 4-6 hours. Especially if it was close to twilight or dawn.)

The answer is table variation, not because we like it, but because the answer really is going to be different in different places and different times of day.

Which would not be an issue unless you insist on doing all your shopping at Neg Channelers Are Us. since standard clerics can spontaneously convert their spells to cure spells.

Good point, that would make me even grouchier if the GM said I had to wait 24 hours...

[FLite]

aboyd wrote:

Jared Thaler wrote:

If I were in absolom, and the GM said "sorry, you have to wait 24 hours for anyone on the street of the gods to prep cure light wounds" I think I would get a little bit grouchy.

And if you're in Absolom and the GM says, "You have to wait 24 hours for anyone on the street of the gods to prep Life Bubble, and you'll fail the module if you wait 24 hours" -- then? Still grouchy? It's a 5th level spell.

No, as I said, the rule of thumb I posted is just my guideline for me. If I were GMing I would probably make you wait 15 minutes while they prepped the spell slot.

But that is well within the realm where it comes down to the situation and the GM.

[grandpoobah]

Full text of Spellcasting Services from the CRB:

Spell Casting Services:

Spellcasting: The indicated amount is how much it costs to get a spellcaster to cast a spell for you. This cost assumes that you can go to the spellcaster and have the spell cast at his convenience (generally at least 24 hours later, so that the spellcaster has time to prepare the spell in question). If you want to bring the spellcaster somewhere to cast a spell you need to negotiate with him, and the default answer is no.

The cost given is for any spell that does not require a costly material component. If the spell includes a material component, add the cost of that component to the cost of the spell. If the spell has a focus component (other than a divine focus), add 1/10 the cost of that focus to the cost of the spell.

Furthermore, if a spell has dangerous consequences, the spellcaster will certainly require proof that you can and will pay for dealing with any such consequences (that is, assuming that the spellcaster even agrees to cast such a spell, which isn't certain). In the case of spells that transport the caster and characters over a distance, you will likely have to pay for two castings of the spell, even if you aren't returning with the caster.

In addition, not every town or village has a spellcaster of sufficient level to cast any spell. In general, you must travel to a small town (or larger settlement) to be reasonably assured of finding a spellcaster capable of casting 1st-level spells, a large town for 2nd-level spells, a small city for 3rd- or 4th-level spells, a large city for 5th- or 6th-level spells, and a metropolis for 7th- or 8th-level spells. Even a metropolis isn't guaranteed to have a local spellcaster able to cast 9th-level spells.

While a Metropolis like Absalom for sure would have Spellcasting Services available, the timely access to them is up to GM discretion.

Please note the text : "...at the (spellcaster's) convenience (generally at least 24 hours later)".

Spellcasters, even in temples, are not your servants. They are contractors (at best). Just because you walk in, doesn't mean the service you want is available right away. Availability should track directly with demand and ease of access.

As stated above, any positive channeling cleric (and we can assume that the majority of temples have these) can Channel Positive Energy or Spontaneously convert for Cure spells. So Hit Point damage should be easy to heal, and relatively quickly. But how quick? Maybe you have to fill out a form and wait in line for 10 minutes. Maybe it's like an Emergency Room and they prioritize. Maybe it's the Temple of Cayden Cailean and everyone is too drunk to listen to you, so you wait an hour for them to sober up a bit.

For specific spells, the higher the level, the longer the wait. You need the individual that can cast it to be available. Again, for low level spells like Lesser Restoration, or commonly needed ones like Remove Disease (Get your Flu Shots Today!), that wait may not be long.

When you start talking about high level spells like Hero's Feast, or non-core spells like Life Bubble, you're gambling on that one (or two) high level caster being in the office, still having his spell slots, and be willing to take on customers. That 11th level cleric could be at an all-day conference on the rising cost of Planar Ally spells, or re-negotiating the Temple's property tax with the city administrator. You might have to wait two or three days to get a meeting with her (or him).

I trust those of you who have tried to call a plumber (or electrician or other contractor) can appreciate how unpredictable it can be to get a contractor to get the job done immediately, or exactly when you want it. Especially if it's a unique job. Especially if demand exceeds supply. Especially if you or the contractor are really bad at people skills or negotiating. Same thing if you've ever been to the hospital. You don't just walk in and say "I'd like to have corrective knee surgery today."

This can be fun role playing flavor (if you have time). The "at least 24 hours" clause tries to model this. If your adventure is "we're going into the dungeon when you're ready", then you have time to plan ahead - but even then your GM may impose some restrictions. If your adventure is "Drendel Dreng woke you up in the middle of the night to run to Blakros Museum for the 47th time this year", there may not be an opportunity (even in a Metropolis like Absalom) to get that spellcasting done.

[BigNorseWolf]

Try imagining a horror movie set in the middle of town. Their car breaks down. No one has repair skills. The party pushes the car 15 miles...

Instead of going to a repair shop.

While the party are all members of AAA

Thats what not being able to get spells cast on you in town in the middle of the scenario would be like: contrived and nonsensical.

[KenderKin]

I was thinking of Varnhold in the Kingmaker AP....sure your in a settlement, but literally no NPC is there to cast the spell...

[aboyd]

KenderKin wrote:

I was thinking of Varnhold in the Kingmaker AP...

Well... I'm asking about a PFS-specific exemption that may or may not modify the normal rules, so what's going on in general Kingmaker campaigns wouldn't have an impact on the question or answer. This should be PFS-specific. Keep reading if you need more text about what is specifically being asked.

grandpoobah wrote:

Full text of Spellcasting Services from the CRB:

Well, I know your stance on this already, since you know this whole discussion is growing out of our conversation. :)

But the point is not the Core Rulebook. I don't need the Core Rulebook explained, and neither do you; we are gods of the Core Rulebook. In our region, you and I could lecture nerds on Core Rulebook text for hours on end. We both know the rules. This is not a question of what the Core Rulebook says.

The question is, when the PFS Guide says "use Core Rulebook rules; spellcasting services can be had any time," is the PFS Guide intending to trump the general rules with a specific exception? That is the question. Can a player come to me when I'm GMing, and say "I buy Raise Dead, right now, mid-adventure, so I can participate in the next fight" -- and when he does that and I say "no, sorry, 24 hour waiting period" can he point at the PFS Guide and say, "It says at any time so I want it at this time."

That's the question. Did PFS management intend for players to buy spells mid-game and get back in the fight? If you're citing the Core Rulebook, you've already decided that the answer is: the Core Rulebook is not being modified by specific text in the PFS Guide. The Core Rulebook text stands, unmodified.

The consensus here on the thread seems to be, "Dude, shut UP about this question. We do not want PFS management to clarify this, because having GM discretion here is exactly what we want and need." And I'm real fine with that.

[BigNorseWolf]

If you couldn't get it mid adventure, why are there 5pp roaming fees for traveling outside your service area of cities with 5,000 or more denizens?

[Andrew Christian]

aboyd wrote:

So, since you guys are already saying contradictory things (pretty much exactly as the previous topics about this went), would you mind hitting the FAQ link so we can see which of you the management decides to side with? I mean, if you don't think it's worthy of that I certainly don't want to compel you, but if you're feeling generous, I'd appreciate it.

I think GM discretion and Table Variation is honestly the exact right thing for this.

When anything may be available is going to be highly circumstantial based on the scenario itself. So we don't want anything codified on when things will be available.

Just trust that your GM will allow things immediately under really dire circumstances, and that they probably won't allow you to just spend cheap gold to buff (Buy a potion or a scroll) just to better own the scenario.

[Andrew Christian]

BigNorseWolf wrote:

If you couldn't get it mid adventure, why are there 5pp roaming fees for traveling outside your service area of cities with 5,000 or more denizens?

When in a small enough area that you couldn't even buy neutralize poison, remove disease or remove curse at the end of the scenario and the larger town is too far away to survive while taking damage.

[BigNorseWolf]

James McTeague wrote:

As for the second point - sure, the PCs may have to wait 24 hours to get the heroes' feast, but they still get the duration after they cast it. They may have to walk back to the dungeon which will eat up some of their duration,

RPGSS 17 item, heroes doggie bag?

[Andrew Christian]

If the situation is really dire, and the characters literally could not complete the mission without some services, I would likely allow them to find a caster immediately. Ultimately I want them to have fun and experience the story being told by the scenario. And if they don't get to do that, they likely won't have fun.

Example:

Severing Ties:

Very low level group with a couple brand new folk. 1st level with 0 XP character gets turned to stone by the basilisk. They end up winning the fight, and nobody can make the DC 25 Knowledge (arcana) check to figure out the cure. So I let them leave and find a scholar in Riddleport for 50gp that tells them the cure.

Not strictly spellcasting services, but a similar type situation with a similar end result.

However, not all circumstances are really as dire as players think. Just because you are paranoid or scared that your character might die because you are in a circumstance that is less than ideal, does not mean you will fail the scenario without the spellcasting services.

Example:

Darkest Vengeance:

There literally is a way built into the scenario to counteract the deeper darkness. So no, I wouldn't let them leave that encounter, go back across the underground lake, climb back up to the tower, travel all the way back to town, get heightened continual flame cast just to finish the scenario.

At some point, you just have to deal with the less than ideal situation.

[Serisan]

I've allowed parties with teleport to go back to town to get necessary supplies in the past, up-to-and-including multiple scrolls of restoration, make whole, etc. Yes, that was in a notorious Kyle Baird scenario.

[Wei Ji the Learner]

Wasn't this thread brought up a few weeks ago? I'm getting a serious sense of thread-ja-vu here.

What's stopping folks from going "I'd like to put you on retainer for 'x' time period while I'm in 'y' dungeon, please?"

That effectively removes the 24-hour window. Might cost some gold, but for some parties, that'd be money well spent.

[Matt Goodall]

Spellcasting services wrote:

The indicated amount is how much it costs to get a spellcaster to cast a spell for you. This price assumes that you can go to the spellcaster and have the spell cast at her convenience (generally at least 24 hours later, so that the spellcaster has time to prepare the spell in question, though you may be lucky enough to find someone who has it prepared that day or a spontaneous caster who knows it).

Generally =/= Always.

Note the bolded words, if that paragraph doesn't say 'GM discretion required' I don't know what does.

[Andrew Christian]

Wei Ji the Learner wrote:

Wasn't this thread brought up a few weeks ago? I'm getting a serious sense of thread-ja-vu here.

What's stopping folks from going "I'd like to put you on retainer for 'x' time period while I'm in 'y' dungeon, please?"

That effectively removes the 24-hour window. Might cost some gold, but for some parties, that'd be money well spent.

PFS doesn't allow retainers to join you in the dungeon. So that would be a no go.

[Drahliana Moonrunner]

Jared Thaler wrote:

aboyd wrote:

Jared Thaler wrote:

If I were in absolom, and the GM said "sorry, you have to wait 24 hours for anyone on the street of the gods to prep cure light wounds" I think I would get a little bit grouchy.

And if you're in Absolom and the GM says, "You have to wait 24 hours for anyone on the street of the gods to prep Life Bubble, and you'll fail the module if you wait 24 hours" -- then? Still grouchy? It's a 5th level spell.

No, as I said, the rule of thumb I posted is just my guideline for me. If I were GMing I would probably make you wait 15 minutes while they prepped the spell slot.

But that is well within the realm where it comes down to the situation and the GM.

Unlike wizards who can fill in empty slots later, clerics can only pray for their spells once per day. You'll simply have to come back tomorrow for that Raise Dead.

[MichaelCullen]

Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:

Unlike wizards who can fill in empty slots later, clerics can only pray for their spells once per day. You'll simply have to come back tomorrow for that Raise Dead.

The Magic chapter of the CRB is one of the most under read chapters of the book. Clerics can, just a wizards, leave slots open and fill them later.

CRB wrote:

Spell Selection and Preparation: A divine spellcaster selects and prepares spells ahead of time through prayer and meditation at a particular time of day. The time required to prepare spells is the same as it is for a wizard (1 hour), as is the requirement for a relatively peaceful environment. When preparing spells for the day, a cleric can leave some of her spell slots open. Later during that day, she can repeat the preparation process as often as she likes. During these extra sessions of preparation, she can fill these unused spell slots. She cannot, however, abandon a previously prepared spell to replace it with another one or fill a slot that is empty because she has cast a spell in the meantime. Like the first session of the day, this preparation takes at least 15 minutes, and it takes longer if she prepares more than one-quarter of his spells.

[Jeff Merola]

Andrew Christian wrote:

Wei Ji the Learner wrote:

Wasn't this thread brought up a few weeks ago? I'm getting a serious sense of thread-ja-vu here.

What's stopping folks from going "I'd like to put you on retainer for 'x' time period while I'm in 'y' dungeon, please?"

That effectively removes the 24-hour window. Might cost some gold, but for some parties, that'd be money well spent.

PFS doesn't allow retainers to join you in the dungeon. So that would be a no go.

I don't think he meant bring them along, but rather go up to them and say "Hey, I might need X spell tomorrow. I'll pay you upfront to make sure you'll be here and with the spell ready to cast if I show up."

[aboyd]

MichaelCullen wrote:

Clerics can, just a wizards, leave slots open and fill them later.

Yeah we do this a lot as players, when we don't know what status effect we need to remove. Remove Curse? Dispel Magic? Remove Blindness? Delay Poison? Leave something open.

Also, since you can fill a higher level slot with a lower level spell, sometimes you can get away with a single slot doing a lot of stuff. Level 3 is awesome for clerics. Tons of spells that will cancel bad effects, and in a pinch you could put a 2nd level spell in that slot, if the 2nd level effect was a perfect fit.

Only useful if you can stand a 15 minute wait, though.

[MichaelCullen]

I routinely leave a few slots open. 15 minutes is very often not a problem, those who fill all their slots at the beginning of the day loose out on a great deal of prepared caster versatility. By mid level you can usually find a spell that can fix most out of combat situations. The greatest part about this for a cleric is that unlike a wizard who must have the spell in a book, a cleric can choose from (almost) their entire class list (barring alignment restrictions).

For the first few levels where spells are few and far between, leaving a slot open may be difficult to justify but after about level 5 I find it hard not to leave a couple open.

[TwilightKnight]

Jeff Merola wrote:

I don't think he meant bring them along, but rather go up to them and say "Hey, I might need X spell tomorrow. I'll pay you upfront to make sure you'll be here and with the spell ready to cast if I show up."

But what spell are they pre-paying for? How do you know what you'll need? Raise dead maybe? So, what if you don't need it afterall? Does the spellcaster keep the money and you're S.O.L.? The easiest, cleanest answer is no, you cannot prepare for this in advance.

aboyd wrote:

Did PFS management intend for players to buy spells mid-game and get back in the fight?

No, simply and plainly. You are extrapolating what you want to "hear" by taking parts of the rule out of context. While it is possible to run away, find a spellcaster, get a spell cast, and then return to the scenario, it is not the rule and it certainly is not meant for you to run off for a short duration "fix it" spell and run back to the encounter that has been ongoing since you left.

PFSRPGG v7.0 page 25" wrote:

Generally speaking, you can pay to have spells cast on you at any time during the scenario so long as you’re in a settlement or have access to a temple, shrine, or wandering mystic.

Yes it says "at any time" but it goes on to qualify that with "so long as you’re in a settlement or have access to a temple, shrine, or wandering mystic." So can you do it truly anytime you want? Clearly, no. Also note the HUGE pink elephant added to the rule..."generally speaking". Meaning that even if you fulfill the requirements of the second half of the first sentence, you still may not encounter an appropriate spellcaster with the necessary spell. Clearly, this is a case of table variation based on multiple IN-GAME factors that cannot easily be defined into a black and white rule.

PFSRPGG v7.0 page 25" wrote:

Page 163 of the Core Rulebook covers the rules for purchasing spellcasting services and the associated costs are listed in the Spellcasting and Services table on page 159.

You seem to claim that the CRB is not relevent, yet the rule specifically refers you back to the CRB for how to adjudicate spellcasting services. These of course would be the general rules for spellcasting services so things like using prestige points would be a campaign specific augmentation to those rules. Things like settlement sizing, no spells above level 6, etc. are also campaign specific guidelines. If there is a discrepancy in the CRB pricing and the list in the Guide, the Guide takes precedence.

Now, I can certainly see an argument that the general rule a PC has to wait 24 hours to get the spell cast is trumped by the campaign specific one that says "at any time," but that still does not mean you can suddenly get a raise dead cast on you in the middle of combat, or while trudging through an isolated dungeon, or on a raft in the middle of the sea, etc. by Doctor ReadilyAvailableSpellcaster. It certainly does not, nor is it intended to work that way. You still have to comply with the rest of the requirements.
Of course a GM is empowered to adjudicate it any way they want. The rules allow for that. So, if your GM wants to allow it, fine. Just that you as the player cannot simply say it and make it so.

[Doyle Taghaur]

Wait, I don't HAVE to fly around Rahadoum in batform healing pathfinders now that I'm a seeker?

DAMMIT, I knew I should have put a few ranks in sense motive.

[aboyd]

Bob Jonquet wrote:

No, simply and plainly. You are extrapolating what you want to "hear" by taking parts of the rule out of context.

Are you sure? Because I'm pretty giddy for this to go any which direction, and I've already stated that I'm really happy with the outcome of this topic so far. What is it that you think I want to hear?

Bob Jonquet wrote:

Yes it says "at any time" but it goes on to qualify that with "so long as you’re in a settlement or have access to a temple, shrine, or wandering mystic." So can you do it truly anytime you want? Clearly, no.

Well, considering the big headline at the top of this topic:

aboyd wrote:

Assume the PCs are in a town capable of getting spellcasting services.

...the qualifiers you mention about being in a good sized town are not really adding to the conversation. We can assume, for the context of the question, that all the things normally needed to get spellcasting services are in fact in place. This needs to be assumed because the question is not "how do you qualify to get these services" but rather "IF YOU DO, then can you, and how quickly?" Again, assuming you're in a big town. The one we've cited in this topic is Absalom. The example I've mentioned a couple of times is "you are in the sewers in Absalom, you have a problem, can you go to the wizard school or churches to get a spell? And will you be back in the sewers in 20 minutes or 24 hours?"

In any case, the question doesn't need to be answered anymore. The answers thus far are fine and plenty. The answers are very empowering for a GM, so it makes me feel much more confident for the games I'm about to run.

[BigNorseWolf]

aboyd wrote:

If spellcasting services are only available with 24 hour delay, all those players going into Bonekeep & Emerald Spire with Heroes Feast or other long-term buffs (from spellcasting services) need to be shut down.

For bonekeep specifically the 24 hour notice interpretation isn't a problem

Spoiler:

Give the players a chance to introduce themselves to

one another at this point. Despite the adventure starting
at the entrance to the dungeon, the PCs have had two days
to prepare for this adventure. During this time, they can
make purchases and make any other preparations as they
see fit.

[BigNorseWolf]

Bob Jonquet wrote:

]But what spell are they pre-paying for? How do you know what you'll need? Raise dead maybe? So, what if you don't need it afterall? Does the spellcaster keep the money and you're S.O.L.? The easiest, cleanest answer is no, you cannot prepare for this in advance.

They'd be paying for a blank slot and yes, would lose the cash.

The easiest, cleanest answer if you want to avoid that is to say yes, when you're in a large town you can find a spellcaster with either the spell you need or a spellbook or a deity and an open spell slot. That saves the problem of the 24 hour notice and buying up timeshares in a spell.

I believe that the rules for PFS are more specific. Pathfinders are not some random adventurer off the street. They're part of a vast support network and having that network actually support its adventurers is a benefit of membership. Its why people put up with the 5 am wakeup calls. When you're in the middle of an adventure and you've mainlined enough blue whinnis to have the consistency of an under stuffed teddy bear you can stop into the society office. If they don't have a caster there waiting for you they know a druid who either owes them a favor or could use some cash.

If you're out in the middle of nowhere 5pp roaming surcharge is the exact same price as a body recovery. Think about that: You're calling in as big of a favor as sending an entire team of pathfinders into a dungeon, killing everything between your body and the entrance, killing whatever undead/fungus/leshy/ghost abomination you've been turned into, sweeping your remains into a dustbin and hauling you back to absolom. Its a BIG favor. Not in the middle of combat big, but if you're paying 5 pp you deserve some top shelf service. Dolphin druid hitting you up on a raft in the middle of the ocean isn't out of the question.

Quote:

No, simply and plainly. You are extrapolating what you want to "hear" by taking parts of the rule out of context. While it is possible to run away, find a spellcaster, get a spell cast, and then return to the scenario, it is not the rule and it certainly is not meant for you to run off for a short duration "fix it" spell and run back to the encounter that has been ongoing since you left.

I don't think anyone is suggesting doing this mid encounter. Although running away and trying again tomorrow certainly has a long and honored tradition among living adventurers.

[TwilightKnight]

aboyd wrote:

Are you sure?

Up until the point where you said you are satisfied with table variation, you seem to be passively arguing that a player could call for aid at ANY time, virtually regardless of circumstances or that there existed some reasonable way for a PC in the midst of combat to rush off, find a caster, have a spell cast, rush back, and complete the encounter. None of that was reasonable, IMO. Apparently I was reading too much between the lines of what you were trying to express. Since everyone seems to be saying the same (or at least similar enough to be negligible) thing, then I guess I've lost the point of the conversation. Table variation seems to be the topic of the day.