Hello all, I've found myself in a bit of a pickle and hope yall will be kind enough to help me out of it!
1.) The Problem -
So, I'm trying to design a character that might be joining up with an existing campaign. The Party is currently level 9 and the point system is 20 Point Buy. The current party is a Human Inquisitor(Archer), Human Juju Oracle & an Ifrit Sorcerer. I said I'd be playing a Monk (because I read somewhere that Monks can make decent tanks) and I liked the idea of being a monk. I wrote the backstory (And accidentally boxed myself into a Judo/Wing Chun Kung Fu type monk) and submitted it when asked and now that I'm trying to build it I'm wondering if it's just me or a Monk (Flowing/Qinggong) might be a really poor match up for this particular party? From what I was reading (although I could have misunderstood) this monk excels with another(s) in melee to take advantage of the AoOs/Flanking and Prone Targets that the monk serves up.
The Build I was working with was a Tripper (Improved Trip/Greater Trip/Vicious Stomp) + Cranestyle
Stat Build I was working with before I realized I needed +13 Int for Greater Trip was: 12 Str / 18 Dex / 14 Con / 10 Int / 15 Wis / 7 Cha
2.) What I'd like from you all -
- Am I miss understanding Flowing/Qinggong Monks usage or lack thereof in the party I listed? If so how am I wrong?
- Is there a way to build a Monk (Any Type) that would work with this party as a frontliner/protector of all the squishier people?
- If so any suggestions/tips on what feats and such to look at?
- If not the alternate class I suggested was Barbarian can we work with this?
- Really at this point I'd be willing to accept any suggestion and hope the DM will accept the change.
3.) Info/Rules -
Race: Human (Although willing to switch it up)
Stats: 20 Point Buy
Class: Preferred Monk (Although willing to switch it up possibly to Barbarian)
Alignment: The Alignments already in the party are CG/CN & N
Other Restrictions: First Party Content Only & Two Traits
Thank you all for reading/your time.
1. You can totally build a monk tank.
2. I'd advise against Flowing Monk and in favor of Unchained Monk. It's a much better set up.
3. Remember that a big part of tanking is dealing a whole lot of damage. If you can't, then you are not going to be really good at your job because no one is going to attack you.
4. A lot of people think that tanking is using a reach weapon and tripping enemies. Others think it's having a ton of DR and HP and taking all the hits. Others think it's having infinity AC and saves. The truth is that a tank is anyone who can get attacked for a period of time while also providing enemies a reason to attack him.
5. Can Unchained Monk do it? Totally.
6. Should you go Unchained Monk? WELL, here's the thing - you'd have to eitehr be LG or LN to fit that party, and I don't know how set the party is in the Chaotic part but you might butt heads with them a lot. For that reason, perhaps Barbarian is more interesting.
7. Anyway, it looks like you have everything you need to make a good monk or barbarian. If you want, I can post a build for each.
If you could post them it would be awesome!
I've talked to the GM and I was going LN and it should work okay with the party + how I intend to RP it too.
Edit: They don't even have to be complete builds if you want just a basic idea/some feats to get me started/figure out what I should be looking at.
Thanks a ton.
If you do any "chained" monk build (except martial artist), stack it with the Qinggong archetype. The flexibility to trade out ki power when you want to is huge. (No monk archetypes work with unchained, unless your GM OKs it.)
The flowing monk archetype does work well as a battlefield control tank, but it really wants to have at least one other melee fighter in the group. If you have an archer and a ranged touch attack sorcerer in the group, a trip build will ruin their day.
The class guide list here has some useful stuff on monks, but I don't know if the unchained monk is included.
For a tank, I really like the chained monk: better AC bonus, better saves, and full damage on flurry on the offhand even when you use weapons (unchained monk only gets that on unarmed strike). The nastiest tanks I've ever had to deal with are monk/druid combinations: you keep your wisdom bonus to AC when wildshaping, and it saves a lot on wild armor.
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I'd say there's three main defensive builds worth giving a look.
Biting Crane. So, here's the deal. Crane Style wants you to have a free hand to deflect attacks and have a TON of AC. But we as players want to have 1.5x Strength to damage so we can lay down the HURT. The compromise? Make a build with Crane Style + Feral Combat Training with a race that has a bite or a gore natural attack, so we can use Crane Style to deflect attacks while making 1.5x STR attacks, being threatening AND hard to hit.
Ingredients
- Race with a primary natural attack and good attribute modifiers (Toothy Half-Orc, Kuru, Maw Oni Tiefling). The most common of these will be Half-Orc.
- Traits: Honored Fist of the Society, Aldori Caution
- Feats: Crane Style, Crane Wing, Crane Riposte, Weapon Focus (bite), Feral Combat Training, Power Attack (you can pick up any other prerequisite feat through Monk Bonus Feats)
- S16+2 D12 C14 I10 W15 CH7
- FCB: Extra ki plz.
- Online at level 5th (Weapon Focus at 1st, Feral Combat Training at 3rd, Crane Style at 5th, rest of the Crane feats thereafter)
Graceful Jabs. Jabbing Style is a pretty neat style that really helps out with damage for Finesse builds in particular. It can give a good amount of damage, but you usually have lowish accuracy so it's not ideal. Well, being a total douchebag and pumping accuracy like a maniac makes this style more attractive. The Ancestral Weapon trait is one of the few traits to grant an always active +1 attack bonus (with a specific type of weapon). This is gold for Jabbing Style monks, but you cannot Jabbing Style with weapons -- unless you also get Ascetic Style! You can use Martial Focus and Weapon Style Mastery to mix both styles. End result is that you get the sweet dexterity of a Finesse build, with good damage, jabbing style punches, and more importantly, a much better critical rate (17-20 with Improved Critical which you should pick at 10th level) than a regular unarmed jabbing style build.
Ingredients
- Human
- Traits: Ancestral Weapon (Silver or Cold Iron Bich'hwa), Monk Weapon Skill (BIch'hwa)
- Feats: Weapon Focus, Ascetic Style, Ascetic Form, Martial Focus, Jabbing Style, Weapon Style Mastery, Jabbing Dancer, Jabbing Master (you can pick up any other prerequisite feat through Monk Bonus Feats)
- S14 D16+2 C12 I10 W15 CH7
- FCB: Extra ki plz.
- Online at level 9: Weapon Focus + AsStyle at 1st, Jabbing Style at 3rd, AsForm at 5th, MartFoc at 7th, Weapon Style Mastery at 9th
Dread Lash. Here's a simpler build that goes active by level 11th but remains good all the way. The basic gist is that you are a monk based on DESTROYING the opposition with 2H Power Attack hits with a large critical rate. But what makes you so cool is that you are using Ascetic Style to use a high critical weapon (Urumi, which has a 15-20 critical with Improved Critical) while also allowing you to use that weapon in conjunction with Medusa's Wrath, which you can easily trigger with a Spinning Kick style strike. Later on, you'll pick up Staggering Critical to totally disable enemies when you crit them (which has a 25% chance of happening, and guess what, you have like seven attacks per round with Spinning Kick and Medusa's Wrath while Flurrying, eight if you use ki for an extra shot). This build tanks by totally and fully destroying + disabling their enemies.
Ingredients
- Military Tradition Human or Ancestral Arms Half-Elf (for extra feat to get that delicious Urumi prof)
- Traits: Martial Manuscript, Honored Fist of the Society
- Feats: Weapon Focus, Ascetic Style, Ascetic Form, Critical Focus, Improved Critical, Staggering Critical, Stunning Critical
- S16+2 D14 C12 I10 W15 CH7
- FCB: Extra ki plz.
ALL BUILDS ABOVE WANT FLYING KICK AS THEIR FIRST STYLE STRIKE, AND BARKSKIN AS THEIR FIRST KI POWER.
For Barb tank, I'm a fan of these builds. They both use the Unchained Barbarian with the Invulnerable Rager archetype and build towards the Taunting Stance rage power.
Raging Sponge. So Taunting Stance is a great feat. This build tries to maximize DR so it sponges even better!
Ingredients
- Human or Witch's Apprentice Half-Orc (for Endurance)
- Traits: Threatening Defender, Indomitable Faith
- Feats: Power Attack, Combat Expertise, Endurance, Diehard, Stalwart, Improved Stalwart, Combat Reflexes
- S16+2 D12 C15 I13 W12 CH7
- FCB: Extra Superstition plz.
- Online at level 1, I think. Basically combine Power Attack and Combat Expertise to deal a ton of damage while soaking up a ton of it. All the extra damage reduction is gonna be great.
Raging Parrymaster. So Taunting Stance is a great feat. But it suffers when enemies fight from range. So I devised this build to be able to retaliate fiercely in melee while removing pesky ranged attacks out of the way with Cut from the Air and the other feats.
Ingredients
- Human or Sacred Tattoo Half-Orc or Dual Minded Half-Elf
- Traits: Indomitable Will, Reactionary
- Feats: Power Attack, Iron Will, Combat Reflexes, Martial Focus, Cut from the Air, Spellcut, Smash from the Air
- S16+2 D15 C14 I10 W12 CH7
- FCB: Extra Superstition plz.
- Online at level 1.
Both builds want Superstition as a rage power as well as Taunting Stance, Increased Damage Reduction and probably something like Renewed Vitality.
Raging Dodgetank. Another option with Unchained Barbarian that doesn't use Invulnerable Rager is to get the Armored Hulk archetype and go AC ball with good DR - combining heavy armor and Guarded Stance. Not as dodgy as the Monk, not as spongey as the Invulnerable Rager, but a good compromise.
Ingredients
- Sacred Tattoo Half-Orc
- Traits: Indomitable Will, Reactionary
- Feats: Power Attack, Iron Will, Dodge, Combat Reflexes, Shield Focus, Ironhide, whatever
- S16+2 D14 C15 I10 W12 CH7
- FCB: Extra Superstition plz.
- Online at level 1.
There are, of course, tank builds for Fighters, Warpriests and what not, but let's keep these in mind first.
Okay, all of these builds look awesome, going through the feats right now and checking things out but somehow the Dread Lash build sounds like something that would be really awesome to play (+you get to use an epic Sword-whip!)
Thanks for these builds they really helped me out a ton!
If you do any "chained" monk build (except martial artist), stack it with the Qinggong archetype. The flexibility to trade out ki power when you want to is huge. (No monk archetypes work with unchained, unless your GM OKs it.)
The flowing monk archetype does work well as a battlefield control tank, but it really wants to have at least one other melee fighter in the group. If you have an archer and a ranged touch attack sorcerer in the group, a trip build will ruin their day.
The class guide list here has some useful stuff on monks, but I don't know if the unchained monk is included.
For a tank, I really like the chained monk: better AC bonus, better saves, and full damage on flurry on the offhand even when you use weapons (unchained monk only gets that on unarmed strike). The nastiest tanks I've ever had to deal with are monk/druid combinations: you keep your wisdom bonus to AC when wildshaping, and it saves a lot on wild armor.
Somehow, I completely didn't see your post! Sorry about that. At this time, not really looking to get into MC yet. I'm still pretty new to PF/TTRPGs. Might get to where I'm comfortable Multiclassing but I'm not quite there yet.
Thank you for the advice though! I'll definitely keep it in mind for the future.
Edit: And yeah, I went through the class guides and that's sort of how I came up with the idea for a flowing monk (or atleast how I wanted to try and build one.)
Okay, dug through this and still love the idea of a Dread Lash Monk but I've a few questions I'd like to ask.
Benefit(s): Choose one weapon from the monk fighter weapon group. While using this style and wielding the chosen weapon, you can apply the effects of feats that have Improved Unarmed Strike as a prerequisite, as well as effects that augment an unarmed strike, as if attacks with the weapon were unarmed attacks.
@Secret Wizard - Does Urumi even count for this? Only way I can see it counting is if your racial proficiency counts toward your Monk weapons.
If it DOES NOT COUNT - What do you think I should do? Grab a Temple Sword/Nine-Section Whip?
PS: Sorry about the triple post.
Urumi counts. It's not a monk weapon, but it's in the monk fighter weapon group.
Acetic style let's it function like a monk weapon.
Okay, thank you. Found it in the Ultimate Combat Monk Weapon Group.
Alright, so some more questions about Dread Lash if you don't mind me bugging you -
1.) I assume I pick up Staggering/Stunning Critical whenever I pick up the BaB for them? (Looks like Lv13 & 18 respectably)
2.) Are Scorpion Style/Gorgon Fist worth grabbing? (Can these be used with Flurry of Blows?)
3.) Should I pick up Improved Critical @Lv7 - Then Re-train it at later levels and pick it up as a monk bonus feat @Lv10? (basically don't pick a bonus feat at 6th and then at lvl 10 grab this and medusa's strike)
4.) This build tanks by totally and fully destroying + disabling their enemies. (Disabling Via Stunning/Staggering I assume? Or are there other ways?)
5.) How would a round look at level 3, level 9 and level 11 (basic Mook Enemies 3-4 of them, assume they can be effected by Spin Kick and are humanoid)
Basically what I've got so far.
Shao Xin
Half-Elf - Ancestral Arms (Urumi) (Gets Elf Immunities/Low-Light Vision/And Choose Huam FCB)
-------------------------------------
[Bonus Feat Lv1] Unarmed Strike
[Bonus Feat Lv1] Stunning Fist
[Bonus Feat Lv1] Dodge
[Lv1]Weapon Focus - (Urumi)
[Bonus Feat Lv2] Scorpion Style (Dunno about this but none of the others really look that good)
[Lv3] Ascetic Style - (Urumi)
[Lv5] Ascetic Form
[Bonus Feat Lv6] - Save for Lv10
[Lv7] Improved Crtical
[Lv9] Critical Focus
1. Yes
2. Nah. Medusa's Wrath straight up as a free-of-prereqs feat at 10th level is so much better. Learn to exploit the free-of-prereqs thing of monk feats here.
3. Just get Imp Critical at level 9th or 11th as a regular feat. It's easy to qualify for as a full BAB class. Not to mention you don't qualify for it until 8th level.
4. Yes, disabling and dealing a lot of damage with Spinning Kick and Medusa's Wrath. You'd also should have a good AC and you can use your 6th level feat to pick up Improved Disarm or Improved Trip or even Improved Grapple to be better at disabling enemies with high fort saves.
5. Looks good though as I said, Imp Critical cannot be taken until you have 8 BAB, so I'd use the level 7th feat for Iron Will probably, level 9th for Imp Critical, level 11th for Critical Focus, and then the rest of the critical feats.
For the 2nd level bonus monk feat, I like Improved Grapple (to stop casters) or Combat Reflexes. For the 6th level, Mobility, Improved Disarm or Improved Trip can all be useful.
http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=672721
Now that I built it I'm not sure I like it that much. (Well Secret Wizard build it and I just ran with it.)
Feel like I'm still missing a lot but that's what we look like so far.
1.) Not really sure why my AC is that low (4 in the Misc is my class AC Bonus + wis Mod)
2.) You're opinions on Flying Kick vs Foot Stomp? What am I using flying Kick for exactly?
After trying to figure out how I'd use it, I feel like I'd probably have been better off running with the Raging Sponge.
From my understanding, I'm REALLY mobile, Will hit alot (once I ding to 10th and pick up Medusa's) and I can probably grapple low CMD creatures pretty effectively but at the same time, I feel that any moderately intelligent NPC is going to walk past me and eat up the squishies. Or god-forbid there's more than one serious threat (Is this what the Flying Kick is for?). And if that's my actual AC I might be a squishy my darn self lmao! (Although Haven't added Items and stuff so that should probably bump me up to 20+ in the AC department atleast I think)
So, In general I'm not sure I'm experienced enough to know how exactly to run this. How do I deal with multiple enemies? How do I protect the rest of my party with this? Sorry Secret Wizard for basically making you teach me how to play it feel like I'm asking a lot of you. My only character before this was a Slumber Witch where I just stood back and Hexed stuff so I came into this thinking I know how to play pathfinder but once I started thinking about how I stop them from eating my team I kinda realized I didn't really know anything.
PS: They said if I ran a witch first running other classes would be easy! They lied! xD
With the change to Feral Combat training the biting Crane Build no longer works.
With the change to Feral Combat training the biting Crane Build no longer works.
What do you mean? All you want FCT for
Is to flurry with bites which works perfectly. There's no issue with the build.
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You could also consider a Dex based Monk using an Agile Amulet of Mighty Fists.
Race - Human (Dual Talent not bad option) Plumekith Aasimar, Undine all work.
Stats - S 10, D 16 + 2, C 12, I 12, W 16 + 2, Ch 7
Feats - Weapon Finesse, Dodge, Exotic WP Elven Branched Spear, Combat Reflexes, Piranha Strike, Crane Style (more defense), Pummeling Style (more offense for penetrating DR)
Item - Elven Branched Spear, Agile Amulet of Mighty Fists.
Basic Idea is to wield the Spear for AoOs but flurry with unarmed strikes for damage. AoOs are used to Trip, Sunder or Disarm from reach.
Between High Dex/Wis for high AC/CMD + Barkskin + Mage Armor + Shield (from UMD or ally putting in a Cracked Vibrant Purple Ioun Stone) you can push AC/CMD up (Lvl 4 w/Mage Armor, Ring of Prot gives you an AC 25, 27 w/barkskin) (Lvl 12 w/ Mage Armor, Shield, +2 Ring, Barkskin, +4 Dex and Wis Belt gives you 46 AC)
Get Wands of Long Arm for Increases Reach.
Saves are great with Cloak plus monk levels
Can go Unchained or Chained monk. I find Unchained to be more offensive but nothing like at level 8 getting Abundant Step plus Ring of Ki Mastery and going early with your High Dex to DDoor into the group of enemies and trip them if they try to get to your allies.
http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=672721
Now that I built it I'm not sure I like it that much. (Well Secret Wizard build it and I just ran with it.)
Feel like I'm still missing a lot but that's what we look like so far.
1.) Not really sure why my AC is that low (4 in the Misc is my class AC Bonus + wis Mod)
2.) You're opinions on Flying Kick vs Foot Stomp? What am I using flying Kick for exactly?
After trying to figure out how I'd use it, I feel like I'd probably have been better off running with the Raging Sponge.
From my understanding, I'm REALLY mobile, Will hit alot (once I ding to 10th and pick up Medusa's) and I can probably grapple low CMD creatures pretty effectively but at the same time, I feel that any moderately intelligent NPC is going to walk past me and eat up the squishies. Or god-forbid there's more than one serious threat (Is this what the Flying Kick is for?). And if that's my actual AC I might be a squishy my darn self lmao! (Although Haven't added Items and stuff so that should probably bump me up to 20+ in the AC department atleast I think)
So, In general I'm not sure I'm experienced enough to know how exactly to run this. How do I deal with multiple enemies? How do I protect the rest of my party with this? Sorry Secret Wizard for basically making you teach me how to play it feel like I'm asking a lot of you. My only character before this was a Slumber Witch where I just stood back and Hexed stuff so I came into this thinking I know how to play pathfinder but once I started thinking about how I stop them from eating my team I kinda realized I didn't really know anything.
PS: They said if I ran a witch first running other classes would be easy! They lied! xD
1. You are missing your ability attribute boosts. +1 wis at level 4 for 16 wis, +1 whatever at 8th. (18 base AC)
2. Barkskin is +4 AC, lasting for 90 minutes, so you should have it up at all times. (22 base AC)
3. Now, 22 AC is as much AC as a Fighter with 16 AC wearing full plate... so you are well in the baseline. But the fighter spent 1k gold and you didn't.
Continued --
Foot Stomp is good too. Flying Kick is probably better if there is a lot of movement.
Also, note that you can use a Ki Power to gain further DR.
Remember you can spend Ki to make an extra strike, so if you are surrounded by enemies, you are probably going to destroy them.
Stuff in the items dept., with the 22 base AC from Barkskin and the +1 to WIS at 4th, should take you to...
Assuming 75k gold...
Belt of Phys Perfection +2 (STR/DEX/CON) (23 AC)
Headband of Wisdom +4 (25 AC)
Bracers of Armor +2 (27 AC)
+3 Urumi
Jingasa of the Fortunate Soldier (28 AC)
Ring of Protection +1 (29 AC)
Cloak of Resistance +1
Boots of Speed
So you'd have 29 base AC at all times, which using the usual formula (20+level) means you are in a pretty good spot. Enemies will only hit you 30-50% of the time... and you can still use Furious Defense if you want to avoid damage from one enemies in particular (although you kill faster if you use ki to make an extra attack)
Monks scale really well with items, because they don't need armor and they get a lot out of Wisdom headbands.
ALSO
Note that your Urumi should be receiving all bonuses your unarmed strike gets through Ascetic Style/Form.
That means your Urumi damage dice should be 1d10, and it should get all the damage reduction granted by Ki Strike. Your critical range should be 15-20, too.
Note also that the Raging Sponge can end up with a ton of DR against physical damage, but it will not have as high AC and it will not have Improved Evasion (or a good Reflex save), so it will take more damage in general.
Alright all of this is awesome. I've got a general idea of what needs to be added/done. You've been an awesome help on all this and it's really appreciated. :D (and 75k is Experience at level 9 and 46k is gold for level 9 I think you got those two mixed up - GM Says I start with 46k Funds.)
I thought my weapon only did the same damage as my Unarmed Strike if I got Ascetic Strike?
nah, that's only if you don't have already an effect that increases your unarmed strike damage dice baseline.
You could also consider a Dex based Monk using an Agile Amulet of Mighty Fists.
BTW, the nasty druid/monk combo tank builds I mentioned were this guy^^^.
:-)Can go Unchained or Chained monk. I find Unchained to be more offensive but nothing like at level 8 getting Abundant Step plus Ring of Ki Mastery and going early with your High Dex to DDoor into the group of enemies and trip them if they try to get to your allies.
Just remember: Tripping is bad for the rest of your party: the archer inquisitor and the sorcerer (who probably has ranged touch attacks) will not appreciate the +4 AC vs. ranged attacks the enemies get when you trip them.
Belt of Phys Perfection +2 (STR/DEX/CON) (23 AC) - 16,000 gp
Slot belt; Price 16,000 gp (+2), 64,000 gp (+4), 144,000 gp (+6); Weight 1 lb.
Headband of Wisdom +4 (25 AC) - 16, 000 gp
Slot headband; Price 4,000 gp (+2), 16,000 gp (+4), 36,000 gp (+6); Weight 1 lb.
Bracers of Armor +2 (27 AC) - 4,000 gp
Slot wrists; Price 1,000 gp (+1), 4,000 gp (+2), 9,000 gp (+3), 16,000 gp (+4), 25,000 gp (+5), 36,000 gp (+6), 49,000 gp (+7), 64,000 gp (+8); Weight 1 lb.
+3 Urumi - 18,000 gp
Jingasa of the Fortunate Soldier (28 AC) - 5,000 gp
Ring of Protection +1 (29 AC) 2, 000 gp
Slot ring; Price 2,000 gp (+1), 8,000 gp (+2), 18,000 gp (+3), 32,000 gp (+4), 50,000 gp (+5); Weight —
Cloak of Resistance +1 - 1,000 gp
Slot shoulders; Price 1,000 gp (+1), 4,000 gp (+2), 9,000 gp (+3), 16,000 gp (+4), 25,000 gp (+5); Weight 1 lb.
Boots of Speed - 12,000 gp
------------------------------------------------------
Total Price - 74k
Actual Budget - 46k (28k Over Budget)
Okay, so if I'm breaking down what's been suggested I get to my actual budget, which of these items do you think I should drop?
My Ideas:
Belt of Phy Perfect -> Drop (Leave for next level) (Save 16k)
Jingasa of Fortunate Soldier -> Drop (Leave for Later) (save 5k)
Urumi +3 -> Drop it down to +2 save 10k
Thoughts/suggestions appreciated.
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Drop the bracers of armor entirely. Instead - get a Pearl of Power (level 1) for 1k and get your sorcerer buddy to cast Mage Armor on you with it. Basically all monks should do that until they can afford +5 bracers.
You save 3k and the armor is +2 better.
To make up the other 25k you're over budget -
1. Drop the boots of speed. Too expensive that that level. (12k saved)
2. Drop the Urumi to +2 for now. (10k saved)
3. Have the belt be just +2Str/Dex for now (6k saved)
4. Bump the cloak up to +2. (cost 3k extra)
Total - 25k saved. (28k including the savings on the bracers vs pearl of power)
Note: If you really want the boots - you could drop the headband down to +2.