The ritual for a changling to become a hag.

[KenderKin]

Does anyone have any ideas for this????

I was thinking about it. I got nothing!!!

[nighttree]

Mechanically the only workable solution I can see would be a template..

[Ambrosia Slaad]

Maybe a prestige class similar to the dragon disciple?

nighttree wrote:

Mechanically the only workable solution I can see would be a template..

Maybe modify the one for the lamia harridan with a different options to tweak it into the different hag variants?

[Kalindlara]

I always assumed that it was a complete overwrite - changeling goes in, hag comes out. No mechanical traces of the former remain. As such, I also assumed that it mostly happened to changelings with no real existing skills to speak of.

Ambrosia Slaad's idea of a PrC would be very interesting, though, for those who want to tap that heritage without their mother's aid, those who learn of their heritage after their mother has been destroyed, or those that have already gained power and are loath to throw it away.

I'll give that one some thought...

[nighttree]

The difficulty is that the varied hag types have such different abilities. It would be very difficult to create one template, that addressed each kind of hag.

I think what Kalindlara suggests....where an overwrite based on the changelings abilities based on the hag racial trait chosen...but with ability scores reduced to a base that the changelings unique ability score , and class abilities are still reflected....would be the ideal.

[nighttree]

Rituals....like those released in the new Occult rules...would possibly work.

[nighttree]

Alter physical ability scores....but not mental ability scores.
And leave class levels in place.

[Kalindlara]

nighttree wrote:

I think what Kalindlara suggests....where an overwrite based on the changelings abilities based on the hag racial trait chosen...but with ability scores reduced to a base that the changelings unique ability score , and class abilities are still reflected....would be the ideal.

Technically, it was more basic than even that. When I said "nothing mechanical persists", I meant "replace your changeling, unique features and all, with a hag straight out of the Bestiary".

That's what I would assume, anyway - whether that's ideal is a different story. ^_^

[nighttree]

I would rather hope for "ideal"...if you already have a changeling that is for example...a 10th level witch...It could be a real kick in the rubber parts to have your intelligence reduced to 12 because of your Annis hag ancestry ;)

[Rathendar]

"Technically" that Annis Hag Int of 12 is the same as a normal human Int of 10(for unclassed baseline comparison), so it could actually go up...

[KenderKin]

I like the template idea. Hag template takes existing changling and turns her into a hag.

I am thinking a +1 template, so effecting a PC can just make them a level behind the other PCs. I could see it done in levels of hag also...

I see the whole thing involving hearing and answering the call and then the ritual itself. Any ideas on making a memorable ritual for the hag to be PC?

[Matthew Morris]

using third PP products weren't there hag templates in the Scarred Lands books? (I don't have them at hand)

[KenderKin]

nighttree wrote:

Rituals....like those released in the new Occult rules...would possibly work.

Thanks I can see this indeed being an occult ritual that adds a crone template to a witch. Where crone is generic hag...a PC is after all defined by his/her class levels.

So the "ritual of the crone".....

[Kalindlara]

Matthew Morris wrote:

using third PP products weren't there hag templates in the Scarred Lands books? (I don't have them at hand)

I can check later. I don't recall such a thing, but that's no guarantee. ^_^

[nighttree]

One of the Wayfinders also has a PrC that evolves a changeling into a hag...I'll see if I can locate it....

EDIT: Wayfinder 5/ Crone Disciple (pg 59) ;)

[Zhangar]

I've always run with the assumption that Kalindlara is - that the hag transformation amounts to annihilation for the prior changeling.

It's lot like getting turned into most undead creatures - the source creature is obliterated and something that can merely fake being the source creature is left in her place.

There's a reason most hags try to recover their daughter for the ritual while she's still a teenager.

(A hag explaining the process to a PC changeling explained that she was a larva, and the hag she could become would be her "adult" state. Said PC did not take that well =P)

I've also run it as the ritual being unique on a hag-by-hag or coven-by-coven basis. The transformation isn't an exact science.

But I'd say the mother's presence is mandatory for a forced transformation.

[Dragonchess Player]

I agree the transformation should be handled as an occult ritual: the mother is the primary caster and two secondary casters (i.e., requiring a full coven); probably restricted casting time, short range, unwilling target must be helpless, limited targets, instantaneous duration. I'd also model it on the reincarnate spell (only to change target into a hag of mother's type), requiring the changeling daughter to be sacrificed during the ritual; the transformed daughter would replace class HD with racial HD up to the hag's normal HD (with any levels above that being retained); daughters with fewer class HD than normal for a hag of that type require a few years of "instruction" before reaching full power.

[KenderKin]

The hag disciple is 10 levels of prestige class to do what should be a simple template addition to the changling witch....

One version is the PC is victim of a coven of hags; the version I am interested in is one a witch would want to do to herself....

I like the idea of the coven....so a witch must kill three hags and use their heads in the ritual of the crone...

Something simple for each dead hag (or head) used she gains the hag subtype and one of the following
Thick skinned +2 boost to natural AC
Hag nails 1d4 damage;
Legendary physical attribute +2 to str, dex or con
Spell resistance 10

Each one can be selected multiple time, stacking effects or increasing damage....