Has anyone played an unchained rogue with a two handed finesse weapon? Like an estoc, ECB, or EBS? If so, how was it? I'm considering the style for a new character and cant decide whether a two hander with power attack or the TWF route is the more attractive one. The estoc in particular seems appealing since you can one hand it in grapple situations. Any input?
I have a low level Kitsune unchained rogue swinging an Elven branched spear. Lots of dex lots of damage, and many mnay attacks of opportunity.
TWF is more feats and more damage in a full attack, you can get off Debilitating injury for yourself. THF is simple and easy. It's really up to you.
TWF looks great on paper. It tends to be very poor in execution.
You don't always full attack
you don't always flank
doing both at the same time is a near celestial phenomenon.
Rogues need to be in the right place at the right time and that means MOVING. Two weapon fighting is all about holding still
On top of that
-you have to keep two weapons enchanted
-more attacks for the same damage means that DR eats up more of it
-some things hurt you the more you hit them.
- very often your first sneak attack kills the thing and then you need to move.
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You don't need to flank if you have two-weapon feint or circling mongoose. Those are very feat intensive, but they eliminate most of the weaknesses of sneak attack.
That said, I have a Half-Orc that gets the best of both worlds by using a Spiked Chain for dex-based THF and using Toothy for an extra attack to capitalize on debilitating injury. Spiked Chain is a terrible weapon, but it does allow the 1.5 dex to damage, and it's thematic.
TWF looks great on paper. It tends to be very poor in execution.
You don't always full attack
you don't always flank
doing both at the same time is a near celestial phenomenon.
Rogues need to be in the right place at the right time and that means MOVING. Two weapon fighting is all about holding still
On top of that
-you have to keep two weapons enchanted
-more attacks for the same damage means that DR eats up more of it
-some things hurt you the more you hit them.
- very often your first sneak attack kills the thing and then you need to move.
My experience is quite different, a TWF rogue with knifemaster is awesome. flanking is very easy to get and all the extra attacks is a force multiplier when you look at your backstab damage, which is definitely needed against the BBG.
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Two-handed Urogues are solid - especially nice if you get Improved Feint. You aren't giving up a 2nd attack to feint until 8th level, and by then you may be able to use a trick to do it faster than a move action. (Moonlight Stalker Feint is very nice if you get concealment with either Blur or just smoke pellets.)
You should probably avoid PA though. Rogues have accuracy issues - and they shouldn't bother having a STR higher than 10 at most.
You should probably avoid PA though. Rogues have accuracy issues - and they shouldn't bother having a STR higher than 10 at most.
Yeah, I guess this is part of my question. I looked at the math a bit and realized that the power attack penalty is less than or equal to the TWF penalty until level 11, so between that, getting 1.5 DEX to damage, and using a 1d10 finesse weapon it seemed like a pretty good amount of damage, even when sneak attacks were hard to come by. You think swaping in a 13 INT for 13 STR and spending the extra feat on combat expertise is the better way to go? I guess at that point it's all to-hit bonuses and no penalties, which seems solid.
Pirhana strike is a viable power attack alternative, but it won't give you dex and a half damage on the finesable elven branched spear or elven curved blade.
My experience is quite different, a TWF rogue with knifemaster is awesome. flanking is very easy to get and all the extra attacks is a force multiplier when you look at your backstab damage, which is definitely needed against the BBG.
Describe a typical fight with him.
When people tell me this, they seem to focus on the really awesome spectacular times it happened and you quisinart something without really considering how many times you do very meh damage.
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I looked at the math a bit and realized that the power attack penalty is less than or equal to the TWF penalty until level 11, so between that, getting 1.5 DEX to damage, and using a 1d10 finesse weapon it seemed like a pretty good amount of damage, even when sneak attacks were hard to come by. You think swaping in a 13 INT for 13 STR and spending the extra feat on combat expertise is the better way to go? I guess at that point it's all to-hit bonuses and no penalties, which seems solid.
Emphasis mine.
That's actually why I recommended a feinting build - though it does take a 13 Int and a pair of feats - so that it happens rarely. You also gain secondary benefits of a decent Int - while Str gets you virtually nothing past level 3.
If you DO get SA in a round - PA is not worth it at all from a DPR perspective - not to mention the debilitating strike that you're doing when you connect with SA.
TWF looks great on paper. It tends to be very poor in execution.
You don't always full attack
you don't always flank
doing both at the same time is a near celestial phenomenon.
Rogues need to be in the right place at the right time and that means MOVING. Two weapon fighting is all about holding still
On top of that
-you have to keep two weapons enchanted
-more attacks for the same damage means that DR eats up more of it
-some things hurt you the more you hit them.
- very often your first sneak attack kills the thing and then you need to move.
I have to agree. I find my two handed finesse rogue gets more sneak attacks with the Scout’s Charge [scout archetype] than I ever did with a two weapon build. By the time you move into position to get a full attack with flank, it's dead.
That and overall I make more attacks than a TWF build when you count AoO from reach.
You don't need to flank if you have two-weapon feint or circling mongoose. Those are very feat intensive, but they eliminate most of the weaknesses of sneak attack.
That said, I have a Half-Orc that gets the best of both worlds by using a Spiked Chain for dex-based THF and using Toothy for an extra attack to capitalize on debilitating injury. Spiked Chain is a terrible weapon, but it does allow the 1.5 dex to damage, and it's thematic.
Alternatively, you can be a Ratfolk for Scurrying Swarmer. For one feat you never have to move into flanking again and you get Solo Tactics.
I would probably go halfling urogue and become a opportunist asap because eventually those AoOs are going to be SAs as well. Of course I haven't had the chance to try it yet so its all on paper.
Eyup. My kitsune just got this and i'm dying to try it out. It fits his hyper caffinated paranoid personality perfectly.
5 goblins charge
AHHHH GOBLINS! *flails spear wildlly*
THUNK sneak attack THUNK sneak attack THUNK sneak attack THUNK sneak attack...
*opens eyes to see a goblin shiskabob "Is it over?"
I would consider one benefit for TWF knifemasters as opposed to two hander rogues is that your daggers (going with the trademark) can be used ranged. As most games I've played involved dungeoncrawling/urban fights or those narrow places as long as you are 30ft away you get to toss all your daggers in the first round while waiting for your allies to get into position. Now with unchained as well you get to split up all those ranged attacks and put on debilitating injuries on as many opponents as your attacks would allow you to. During the first round, more than damage I'd say the reduced attack/movement speed will help a lot for allies to get into a better position for the following rounds.
Rogues aren't known for awesome to hit numbers, then you add range minuses and at least three feats [point blank, quick draw, precise shot] to not take minuses to throw into melee. Add in cover and such for all those 'narrow urban' spaces, and I'm not sure you'll get any where close to "as many opponents as your attacks" hit and debilitating injuried.
Not to say a ranged option isn't bad, but that sounds like good use of a secondary weapon. I'd rather quickdraw a weapon with a range of 30+ for no ranged minuses than take a -4 in 30' and less feats spent on it.
The opportuist combo seems brutal, but doesn't come online until level 10 and requires you to play a halfling. Did your group just let your kitsune take the PrC, or is there a way to pick up that build with any race?
Without opportunist it seems like the branched spear option would be a little lackluster. Is that the experience you've had, or do you find the EBS to still be effective? Do you make any choices in your build to enhance it? Do you always open up with hamper movement to try to trigger SAs if your flanking buddy can get into position before they move?
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The thing about the branch spear is you can really take advantage of gang up with it if you are on the second row and you have two melees in front. Combine that with Phalanx Formation to avoid the cover penalty and still be able to take AoOs.
That's the build I'm planning on, should I ever get the chance.
The thing about the branch spear is you can really take advantage of gang up with it if you are on the second row and you have two melees in front. Combine that with Phalanx Formation to avoid the cover penalty and still be able to take AoOs.
Now that sounds pretty efficient. We get a lot of guys in our group that summon or have animal companions, so there's never a lack of melee combatants. Thanks for the advice, guys. I've got a lot of options to explore.
Does anyone know how BigNorseWolf got halfling opportunist on a Kitsune? Probably just a house rule?
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Ah, those two-handed DEX destroyers unchained rogues... so wrong thematically but so swwwwweeet crunchily... I am really torn. My dagger-toting unchained rogue is all about concealing small weapons, so that two-handed route is so... wrong... doesn't look right. I'm planning to give him sap as his next DEX damage weapon... but if/when he hits high levels... that branch spear is hard... so hard to ignore.
Please give me a better alternative so that I can ignore it! :)