So my character in my pathfinder game is crazy and evil and was told by his God to collect a NPC party member's tears(yeah weird.) so if when my party is sleeping I cast hold person on them do they get a will save? And if they pass do they wake up?
They absolutely get a will save.
All it does is paralyze them. Assuming they don't hear you cast the spell and wake up (a perception check), then I don't see any reason why that would wake them up. What's great is that attempting to break out of the spell is a full-round action, so if they fail their first save and don't wake up then they are held for the entire duration.
If the target of a spell is yourself (the Target line of the spell description includes “You”), you do not receive a saving throw, and spell resistance does not apply. The saving throw and spell resistance lines are omitted from such spells.
Some spells restrict you to willing targets only. Declaring yourself as a willing target is something that can be done at any time (even if you're flat-footed or it isn't your turn). Unconscious creatures are automatically considered willing, but a character who is conscious but immobile or helpless (such as one who is bound, cowering, grappling, paralyzed, pinned, or stunned) is not automatically willing.
Some spells allow you to redirect the effect to new targets or areas after you cast the spell. Redirecting a spell is a move action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity.
A sleeping target would be considered a willing target. Wouldn't that make them forgo their save "voluntarily"?
Wow. Sleeping targets are willing RAW?
That makes assassination so much easier.
** spoiler omitted **
A sleeping target would be considered a willing target. Wouldn't that make them forgo their save "voluntarily"?
This... seems odd. I mean, the spell nightmare which is used on sleeping beings requires a save, leading me to believe they'd get a save for other spells that allow it too. Perhaps one is still conscious while asleep in pathfinder or rather you are conscious, but are just using it for dreams about building go carts with your ex land lord.
Admittedly it does say you can cast the spell on those who are awake. Interesting.
I'm not sure "Unconscious" and "Sleeping" are the same thing.
A modern doctor would tell you that one major difference is that when you're asleep you ARE able to respond to external stimuli, like someone shaking you or saying your name to wake you up, but when you're unconscious you are NOT able to respond to external stimuli.
So, by Pathfinder rules, I wouldn't treat being asleep as being unconscious. Instead, I would include it on the list right next to "stunned".
Not sure what the RAI is since "asleep" is not listed on this rule at all.
Edit: Two posts down, Guru put together some good RAW support for this post.
As for casting a mental spell on a target, it should wake them up.
Pathfinder says that victims feel the magic when they save:
A creature that successfully saves against a spell that has no obvious physical effects feels a hostile force or a tingle, but cannot deduce the exact nature of the attack.
If you hit them with a sword but it bounces harmlessly off their armor or their DR, would you assume they sleep through it? I wouldn't. If you hit them with a fireball and they save (with Evasion) would you assume they sleep through it? I wouldn't. Likewise, if you hit them with Hold Person and they save, I wouldn't assume they sleep through it.
Also, I wouldn't expect them to sleep through it if they DON'T save. If you hit them with a sword and do damage, would you assume they sleep through it? No way. If you hit them with a fireball and they don't save, would they sleep through it? No way. If you hit them with Hold Person and they don't save, they won't sleep through that, either.
Not explicitly RAW (except the part I quoted) but I think the conclusions from the RAW make perfect sense.
Sleeping doesnt make you "unconscious" ruleswise.
Sleeping makes you "helpless".
When you are "helpless" you still get your saves and arent automatically considered willing. Sleeping is a state of lowered consciousness, for example you still make perception checks, albeit with a malus of -10.
"Unconcious" is stronger then "helpless".
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Helpless
A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent's mercy. A helpless target is treated as having a Dexterity of 0 (–5 modifier). Melee attacks against a helpless target get a +4 bonus (equivalent to attacking a prone target). Ranged attacks get no special bonus against helpless targets. Rogues can sneak attack helpless targets.
[Coup de Grace stuff].
***
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Unconscious
Unconscious creatures are knocked out and helpless. Unconsciousness can result from having negative hit points (but not more than the creature's Constitution score), or from nonlethal damage in excess of current hit points.
***
*The more you know*
I agree with Guru, but I think there is more to what 'willing' is too.
Willing is not exactly the same as voluntary choosing not to save. Basically, willing (and being automatically willing when unconscious) only apply to spells etc. that are willing targets only.
So an unconscious character is willing for the purpose of a teleport spell, but that doesn't mean that they don't get a save against magic jar.
For this I go back to the words of Gygax himself, from the AD&D Dungeon Masters guide. I don't recall it exactly, but the answer to, "do I get a save?", was always yes. Because flying dragons, magic, and mostly FUN. You always get a save. The odds might suck, but there is always a chance.
Also, your God wants tears, not just drops of water from an eye... Get that NPC crying! That is where the REAL power comes from!
A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent's mercy.Unconscious
Unconscious creatures are knocked out and helpless. Unconsciousness can result from having negative hit points (but not more than the creature's Constitution score), or from nonlethal damage in excess of current hit points.Helpless= Held, Unconscious
Unconscious= Knocked out.RAI- Sleep and Unconscious are the same thing.
RAW- There is no definition of 'sleeping' and neither sleeping nor unconscious has 'asleep' as a term or condition in there definition.But really, when your asleep your unconscious.
Helpless has sleeping in its definition, as you just quoted. In that definition is does also use the word 'unconscious' but that is probably in the colloquial English usage of the term, rather than as a defined condition or term or art. Consider "I was unconscious as soon as my head hit the pillow" or "Rocky was unconscious after getting hit by Clubber Lang." We understand stand that even though unconscious is used in both sentences, and even in both cases being the result of a 'hit' we are talking about two quite different things. Both usages are correct.
Unconscious in the game defines itself as helpless + knocked out, which means it is obviously a more serious condition that helpless, and absolutely not appropriate to describe simple sleep.
Unconscious creatures are knocked out and helpless. Unconsciousness can result from having negative hit points (but not more than the creature's Constitution score), or from nonlethal damage in excess of current hit points.
Unconscious is not the same as asleep.
** spoiler omitted **
A sleeping target would be considered a willing target. Wouldn't that make them forgo their save "voluntarily"?
Nope.
There are two different rules here that matter, depending on the spell.
For spells with a requirement of a willing target, the rule you quoted applies. Any spell that requires a willing target will work. Marionette Possession is an amusing example of a spell exploitable using that method.
However, notice that there is nothing about saves in that section. For that, these rules come into play.
...
(harmless)The spell is usually beneficial, not harmful, but a targeted creature can attempt a saving throw if it desires.
...
Voluntarily Giving up a Saving ThrowA creature can voluntarily forgo a saving throw and willingly accept a spell's result. Even a character with a special resistance to magic can suppress this quality.
For spells with the [Harmless] tag, unconscious characters (like all other characters) don't get a saving throw unless they desire one. Since desiring anything is a bit difficult when you are unconscious, such characters have effectively no choice in the matter. However, for spells without the [Harmless] tag, the unconscious creature cannot choose to forgo the saving throw. As such, they will always roll a saving throw against non-harmless effects that allow one.
So, no. You can't bypass a creature's saving throws by casting on them while they are sleeping or unconscious.
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Also, your God wants tears, not just drops of water from an eye... Get that NPC crying! That is where the REAL power comes from!
This, right here, is the perfect answer.
If I GM'd this god and sent you for tears and you came back with emotionless eye water, you'd meet with a very disappointed god.
Tears are the essence of grief and sorrow. Salty eye water has none of that. Get the tears, not the saline.
Chemically speaking, tears produced for different reasons actually have very different structures. Pain, sorrow, and joy are all distinct from one another on a molecular level.