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I noted in another thread that it seems like when the Shadowdancer was created, the assumption was that all PrCs would be ten levels long.
The Shadowdancer, on the other hand, isn't really built to be ten levels long, and could easily fit all of it's core features into a five level long build, or, a little less comfortably, even a *three* level long build.
Rather than create, IMO, fairly lame abilities relating to summon 'non-evil shadows that can't reproduce' or whatever, I really think that this PrC should be pared down to it's essentials, and the extra levels of wasted space 'dead levels' trimmed off and left on the cutting room floor.
Not every PrC needs to be 10 levels long, and, in this case, strapping on uninspiring abilities don't make these 'dead levels' worth taking, *especially* under Pathfinder, where higher levels of core Rogue are more valuable than they were under 3.5 (making them even *more* valuable than Shadowdancer levels...).
My thought for fixing the Summon Shadow ability, is that I rather liked the Shadow template which was published in WoTC's Savage Species, and thought it could be useful to treat the shadow as an Animal Companion, but incorporeal. Coopt the rules for Animal Companion summoning, or the Arcane Bond, as flavor allows, and allow the shadow to be dismissed or go completely etherial. Considering that it is incorporeal, it has substantial advantages to a standard animal companion or familiar, but should be able to be balanced in utility to either of these. The problem, of course, is that the progression of the Shadowdancer is limited, so you would not get full advancement to familiar or animal companion levels. Since it is a shadow, stripped of the create spawn ability, that isn't too out there. Perhaps, like animal companions and familiars, there can be an option swap.
Perhaps some ideas for the Shadowdancer can be borrowed from the Psion Uncarnate, allowing some ability to become shadow and quasireal, to deliver touch attacks and do similar things. There is some deadspace in the Shadowdancer progression, and adding some options could be good if it needs to stay at 10 level progression.
Yes, I pretty much agree with all of this. I made a similar thread in the general discussion a long time ago.
In my game (in which I let my rogue take a familiar as a third talent along the magic talent line), I just let our SD apply the shadow template to her familiar.
A big issue with this class also seems to be rogue overlap. The fluff encourages rogue to take it, but then, their abilities like improved evasion go to waste. Can we get this modified so that, if somebody goes rogue10/SD10, they can take another rogue talent or something?
I'm really dissapointed by the shadowjump ability. It should be the hallmark of the class, and it ends up being rather poo-tastic. Really? THAT's it? Only in games without scrolls of dimension door or cloaks of the mountebank is this remotely useful. And even then...arcane trickster does it better.
Actually, that was one of the anti-dipping suggestions I was planning to put out Epic Meepo. Shadow Dancers are very unique among others, its an individually learned or specifically apprenticed art, there's no guild or accademy of shadow dancers.
Advanced Progression- Shadow Dancers come from many walks of life, bringing their various skills with them into the class and expanding on them as their ability to dance the shadows grows. At every third level, the shadow dancer may expand one trait of a prior class. Such as a die of sneak attack, a monk's unarmed damage or unarmored movement, or perhaps a fighter's feats or weapon training.
It helps add a sense of growing into a new path and enhancing the art with your prior style. Any thoughts?
That's not a bad idea at all. If the class isn't going to be given good enough abilities to take on its own, at least it will give people a reason to not dismiss it off hand.
I noted in another thread that it seems like when the Shadowdancer was created, the assumption was that all PrCs would be ten levels long.
The Shadowdancer, on the other hand, isn't really built to be ten levels long, and could easily fit all of it's core features into a five level long build, or, a little less comfortably, even a *three* level long build.
Rather than create, IMO, fairly lame abilities relating to summon 'non-evil shadows that can't reproduce' or whatever, I really think that this PrC should be pared down to it's essentials, and the extra levels of wasted space 'dead levels' trimmed off and left on the cutting room floor.
Not every PrC needs to be 10 levels long, and, in this case, strapping on uninspiring abilities don't make these 'dead levels' worth taking, *especially* under Pathfinder, where higher levels of core Rogue are more valuable than they were under 3.5 (making them even *more* valuable than Shadowdancer levels...).
See, I feel like the shadowdancer has enough flavor and enough abilities attached to it to warrant a full ten-level class. I just think they need to be worth taking. And one thing D&D currently lacks is a nightcrawler-ish character, so I'd rather see them moved in that direction than paired down. Though, if they're not going to add a ton of abilities to it then, yes, it's current range of abilities could quite easily fit into 5 levels.
I could easily see Shadowdancer as an 'accent' 5 level class. Even if you finished those 5 levels and continued leveling in Rogue or something else, you would still be "A Shadowdancer" - it's epic progression was never much to bother with either.
On the other hand it does need something if it stays 10 levels - it attracts several of my players, but is quite the let down mechanically. [Note: none of my players have ever actually gotten to the point of taking this class.]
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I just don't know what it is supposed to do. It would make a nice twist on the "mystic ninja" idea - but it doesn't have sneak attack dice. It could be an interesting spin on a bard - but it improves neither spellcasting nor bardic performance. What the heck is it?
Tell me that, and I'll tell you how to fix it.
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The only way I could see this PrC expand to ten levels meaningfully would be to make it some sort of illusionist / rogue version of the Eldritch Knight or Arcane Trickster.
At which point, it's just slightly different Arcane Trickster anyway.
Adding various Rogue ability progressions (such as Sneak Attack) to the 'dead space' of the PrC just begs the question, 'why not use Rogue levels in those spaces?'
In my opinion, if the shadow dancer doesn't at least get sneak attack, its a waste of word count. And I'm not saying add sneak attack as a prerequisite to make it rogue-only, either. I'm saying give it sneak attack, even if the character who takes it wasn't a rogue to start with.
Because, frankly, a prestige class that's all about slinking around in the shadows should be able to do something better upon sneaking up to someone than hoping to quickly multiclassing into a different, more effective class.
I Concur strongly with this point,
I have now run two D&D3.5 campaigns ussing a varriant of the shadowdancer named shadowslayer with even numbered sneak attack progression. The class has proven both popular and very balanced. The class reduces the shadow jump range by %50 and eliminates the ability to summon shadows. Most characters have taken 8 or more levels in the class and I have recieved no complaints as to the class's function at the table.Full 3.5 prestige class here Shadowslayer at the Tusk Mountain Website.
For an example of a high level ranger/rogue shadowslayer look here:
Nervosh Lvl 19.
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The only way I could see this PrC expand to ten levels meaningfully would be to make it some sort of illusionist / rogue version of the Eldritch Knight or Arcane Trickster.
At which point, it's just slightly different Arcane Trickster anyway.
Adding various Rogue ability progressions (such as Sneak Attack) to the 'dead space' of the PrC just begs the question, 'why not use Rogue levels in those spaces?'
Even as a 5 level progression (which i'm not in favor of) you still have problems. The shadowdancer is still stuck with many abilities, like the shadow, illusion, and shadowjump, that are sub-par. These would still need to be fixed (That and, I'd rather see more given to the class than see it shortened).
And one thing D&D currently lacks is a nightcrawler-ish characterFirst level Cleric - Travel Domain.
That's a good point. If we can give something like that to a cleric, we certainly can give it to a shadowdancer.
I'm not entirely sure what there is to add here. The class as written is a great read until you actually think about playing it. It has little offensive abilities, it's class features don't really progress well and in some cases are just lackluster.
- Shadow Jump should be a move action at most. Maybe have it improve to move after 2 levels and Swift Action after 4 levels.
- The class needs some offensive kick. As Epic suggested Sneak Attack progression would be good. Otherwise maybe some kind of negative energy attack?
- The summoned shadow is just bad and does not really add to the class at all. It would not be missed.
As far as offensive punch is concerned, I like the idea of allow a wraithstrike-like ability to bypass normal defenses, when within attacking from an area of shadow, and attack against touch AC. Limit it to a per-day mechanism which advances somewhat like the paladin's smite evil, and it might actually be pretty neat.
As far as offensive punch is concerned, I like the idea of allow a wraithstrike-like ability to bypass normal defenses, when within attacking from an area of shadow, and attack against touch AC. Limit it to a per-day mechanism which advances somewhat like the paladin's smite evil, and it might actually be pretty neat.
That's a cool idea.
I'm not entirely sure what there is to add here. The class as written is a great read until you actually think about playing it. It has little offensive abilities, it's class features don't really progress well and in some cases are just lackluster.
- Shadow Jump should be a move action at most. Maybe have it improve to move after 2 levels and Swift Action after 4 levels.
- The class needs some offensive kick. As Epic suggested Sneak Attack progression would be good. Otherwise maybe some kind of negative energy attack?
- The summoned shadow is just bad and does not really add to the class at all. It would not be missed.
I agree, that's a big part of the problem. You read the class and think "awesome, a badass warrior of the night". And, in some of my games, I have players who can be drawn in by titles and descriptions. Which is ok, except when they cripple themselves with classes like SD. Really, No PRC options should suck.
I never approached the Shadow Dancer from a Monk or even Rogue angle. I've always come at it through a Ranger, Bard, or some combination of the two. If we are going to talk about a class that has a multiple profession appeal we need to look at the whole spectrum.
As for beefing up the 'jumping from shadow to shadow' aspect of the class when it is attacking... what about building on the Hide in Plain Sight ability? Even under the old 3.5 hiding rules a Shadow Dancer could be hidden, sneak up on foe, take a turn for a full attack action, then Bluff and hide again on the next round (effectively popping in and out of a sudo-invisibility) as long as there were shadows near by. Does this fit the kind of Night-crawler fighting style you are thinking off, or at least a start at it?
I also like that "Shadow Dance" concept. Adding some ability that negates AoOs or allows the Shadow Dancer to move faster while hiding would be good. As you said it's already most of the way to Spring Attack. The again that could go into an ability to hide faster/better while fighting.
*edit* Oh, and add the ability to see even through magical shadow. It makes no good sense for a Shadow Dancer to be unable to see in magical darkness.
In my opinion, if the shadow dancer doesn't at least get sneak attack, its a waste of word count. And I'm not saying add sneak attack as a prerequisite to make it rogue-only, either. I'm saying give it sneak attack, even if the character who takes it wasn't a rogue to start with.
Because, frankly, a prestige class that's all about slinking around in the shadows should be able to do something better upon sneaking up to someone than hoping to quickly multiclassing into a different, more effective class.
I Concur strongly with this point,
I have now run two D&D3.5 campaigns ussing a varriant of the shadowdancer named shadowslayer with even numbered sneak attack progression. The class has proven both popular and very balanced. The class reduces the shadow jump range by %50 and eliminates the ability to summon shadows. Most characters have taken 8 or more levels in the class and I have recieved no complaints as to the class's function at the table.Full 3.5 prestige class here Shadowslayer at the Tusk Mountain Website.
For an example of a high level ranger/rogue shadowslayer look here:
Nervosh Lvl 19.
We have a similar setup in our house rules for a variant Shadowdancer prc.
Shawdowdancer is the 'free hide in plain sight' class.
It's been said, but I'm going to reinforce the following points:
The shadow is one of the the stupidest class features ever and should be removed.
Shadow jump should be improved and should be a move action.
The ability to see through magical darkness, or cast the Darkness spell as a spell-like would be a good improvement.
Velderan, if you take a look at my last post, you'd see I've made a few suggestions that would significantly improve the shadow dancer. Including making their shadow-jump ability a significant part of their combat style.
However, on looking at it, it appears that shadow-jump as a once-round immediate action is too good. It should be reduced to a swift action, however a certain number of times per day (class level perhaps? I know I've beat that number to death, but its such a great scaling detail. Maybe class level + Cha mod instead) It can be used as an immediate action.
I think immediate action may actually be too much. Personally, I'd make it a move action, and then, as capstone, a swift action.
I really really like the idea of a shadow-jumping spring attack. At least that way the shadowdancer can actually get some logical use out of their required feats.
Also I agree that something needs to be done to benefit races who already get darkvision. Drow Shadowdancers are a pretty logical leap.
Playing off of the theme of Shadowdancing, I think it is absolutely key, having played a Shadowdancer monk, and being stuck at half move speed, to give Shadowdancer's a full move speed, and even the ability to run, while hidden. If Shadowdancer's are about stealth, then they should build awesome stealth abilities off of Hide in Plain Sight.
That provides a definate niche for the shadowdancer, as the person who can move full speed, hasted, and remain hidden, until they blow their cover. Add an ability to hide as a swift action, and then you might not have to play with the supernatural aspects of the class too heavily.
Proposal:
Shadowdance (Ex): At 2nd level, the shadowdancer has practiced the ability to match her movement to those normally occuring within shadows to allow for greater mobility while hiding. The shadowdancer using the shadowdance ability takes no movement penalty for one move action or move equivalent action each round while using the Stealth Skill. In addition, she can attempt to Hide In Plain Sight as a swift action. At 5th level, the shadowdancer becomes so proficient with the shadowdance that she can remain hidden while using a double move action without taking a movement penalty. Finally, at 8th level, the shadowdancer can run while hiding.
Normal activities outside of movement which would reveal a character using the Stealth skill will still reveal the shadowdancer using the shadowdance ability.
Thoughts: Move this ability up to 4th level. Allow shadow jump (su) to be used as a move action, and this could be enough to make the shadowdancer the go to class for stealthy mobility.
Darkvision (Su): At 2nd level, a shadowdancer can see in
the dark as though she were permanently under the effect
of a darkvision spell. At level 5, this can pierce magical darkness.
Shadow Illusion (Sp): When a shadowdancer reaches 3rd
level, she can create visual illusions. This ability’s effect is
identical to that of the arcane spell silent image and may be
employed once per day for every 2 additional class levels in shadowdancer. In addition, she can instead create an effect identical to the arcane spell darkness at 5th level.
Thoughts:
Increasing the times usable per day to a total of 4 times a day at 9th level makes it fun, and not too shabby. Adding darkness to the spell like ability list at 5th level works reasonably well.
Summon Shades (su): At 3rd level, a shadowdancer can summon a shadow, an undead shade. Unlike a normal shadow, this shadow’s alignment matches that of the shadowdancer, and the creature cannot create spawn.
The summoned shadow cannot be turned, rebuked, or commanded by any third party. In addition, the shadow can transfer itself at will to the Plane of Shadow as a spell-like ability. The shadow can transfer back to the material plane within an area of shadow within 10 ft of the shadowdancer. This shadow serves as a companion to the shadowdancer and can communicate intelligibly with the shadowdancer, even from the Plane of Shadow.
Every third level gained by the shadowdancer adds +2 HD (and the requisite base attack and base save bonus increases) to her
shadow companion.
If a shadow companion is destroyed, or the shadowdancer chooses to dismiss it, the shadowdancer must attempt a DC 15 Fortitude save. If the saving throw fails, the shadowdancer gains one permanent
negative level. A successful saving throw avoids this negative level. A destroyed or dismissed shadow companion cannot be replaced for
30 days(maybe 1 week instead?).
Alternately, the shadowdancer can forgo the summoned shadow, and elect instead to wreathe their melee attacks in material from the Plane of Shadow, and slip her attack in the shadows between her opponent's defenses. Once per day, every 3rd level, the shadowdancer can, as a swift action, make any melee attack until her next turn against an opponent's touch AC.
Thoughts:
Allowing the shadow to plane shift to the plane of shadow is a flavorful way to allow the shadow to pull itself out of danger when it is at risk. It can already fly OK, and although it is still horribly squishy, this little bit of extra ability to tuck itself away when in danger will keep it going. Swapping it out directly for the ability to, for a full round, attack against touch AC likewise seems like a reasonable trade.
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Another idea to suggest shadow dancing would be to give them combat bonuses when the move more than 10 feet that round, either by shadow jumping or moving whide hiding, similar to how the Scout base class skirmish ability from the complete adventurer worked. I'd say +2 to attack and damage and +1 to AC, and then improve to +4 to attack and damage and +2 to AC at a higher level.
How about a slight modification to Hide in Plain Sight and push back the best of it to a later level.
Hide in Plain Sight (Su): As long as a Shadow Dancer is with 10 feet of some sort of shadow, a shadowdancer can hide herself from view in the open without anything to actually hide behind. At 3rd level a Shadow Dancer can even use the Stealth skill to hide while being observed.
The intent is to allow a Shadow Dancer to slink around in the shadows without being able to strike and fade in a two turn cycle right after taking the PrC. A 1st or 2nd level Shadow dancer would still need to Bluff then Hide.
Remember that stealth is part of a move action normally so it doesn't need to be made a Swift Action. The only case that changes is with the Snipping option...
Fade (Su): At 3th level, if a Shadow Dancer has already successfully used Stealth, a Shadow Dancer can make one attack, then immediately use Stealth again. You take a –20 penalty on your Stealth check to maintain your obscurity. At 6th level this penalty is reduced to -10. At 9th level this penalty is reduced to 0.
This is the snipping option but as a free action instead of move action basically. Replace the Summon Shadow with this.
I do have an idea to make Summon Shadow better, but should it be saved? *edit* Nevermind TreeLynx got to it first, basically make it more like the Paladins mount.
How about a slight modification to Hide in Plain Sight and push back the best of it to a later level.
Hide in Plain Sight (Su): As long as a Shadow Dancer is with 10 feet of some sort of shadow, a shadowdancer can hide herself from view in the open without anything to actually hide behind. At 3rd level a Shadow Dancer can even use the Stealth skill to hide while being observed.
The intent is to allow a Shadow Dancer to slink around in the shadows without being able to strike and fade in a two turn cycle right after taking the PrC. A 1st or 2nd level Shadow dancer would still need to Bluff then Hide.
Remember that stealth is part of a move action normally so it doesn't need to be made a Swift Action. The only case that changes is with the Snipping option...
Here is the issue I have. Everyone with a BAB of +6, and the expenditure of two feat slots, can get the advantage, more or less, of Hide In Plain Sight with Wind Stance, without picking up Shadowdancer. Taking the two skill points for Perform:(Dance) and halting your existing class advancement, IMHO, should make you better than anyone at Stealth, and I feel that this should advance with the class. Allowing swift stealth at level 2 opens the sniping option up at level 2, but hanging some extra fruit with fast stealth further up in the progression will encourage players interested in stealth to stay with the PrC.
The point of pushing back the hiding while being observed(I should make a clearer distinction between casual and direct/combat observation) is to address the point about front loaded dipping. I'll take back the Fade suggestion and go back to as minimal as possible changes.
Wind Stance, Lighting Stance, or Cloak Dance (general feat from Psionics SRD) are not as good as the current Hide in Plain Sight, despite being about the same level of requirements. Wind Stance only works against Ranged (and I would argue does no allow hiding), Lighting only with Double or Withdraw move. Cloak Dance is perhaps the closest but prevents all but a 5 ft. step.
Even with the slight alteration of moving Observed hiding back to 3rd, the Dancer's Hide in Plain Sight would still be better at 1st and 2nd level then those feats. At 1st and 2nd level a Shadow Dipper could use Bluff (standard) and Stealth (move) to disappear in combat. Assuming you can hide in self-generate concealment that is on par with Cloak Dance, and maybe Lighting Stance. Wind Stance is still iffy on that score because it only works against ranged attacks.
Someone going full Shadow Dancer would then get the ability to do that without making a Bluff check at 3rd level. As long as we can find a way to strengthen the class from 3rd level beyond it will work to keep dipping down.
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From a minimal change stand point I do like proposed alterations to the Darkvision and Shadow Illusion ability. Together those would allow the Dancer to use Hide in Plain Sight in almost any combat condition a few times per day.
The first fix for the Summon Shadow above anything is removal of the Negative Level for it dying. This is not line with anything in Pathfinder. Another idea is to use the Summon Shadow ability as a vehicle for additional effects.
An idea here with Summon Shadow would be an option to temporarily dismiss/bind it to gain other abilities. That would bluster what people see as weak ability while being thematically interesting. I'm not saying replace Summon Shadow but use it.
Here's what I was thinking...
At 3rd level, a shadowdancer can summon a shadow, an undead shade. Unlike a normal shadow, this shadow’s alignment matches that of the shadowdancer, and the creature cannot create spawn. The summoned shadow cannot be turned, rebuked, or commanded by any third party. This shadow serves as a companion to the shadowdancer and can communicate intelligibly with the shadowdancer. Once per day as full-round action she can summon her shadow companion from the shadow plane for 1 minute per class level; it may be dismissed at any time as a free action. Every third level gained by the shadowdancer adds +2 HD (and the requisite base attack and base save bonus increases) to her shadow companion, and it can be summoned an additional time per day. If a shadow companion is destroyed it cannot be replaced for 30 days.
A shadowdancer can choose to dismiss her shadow companion as a swift action and gain the use one of the following abilities for the remainder of her companion's normal summoning time or until discharged:
Fading (Su): after making an single attack the shadowdancer can immediately use Stealth to hide, with -10 check penalty.
Shadow Skin (Su): a shadowdancer suffers no penalty for moving at normal speed while using stealth, and can run or charge with a -10 to the check.
Shadow Strike (Su): shadowdancer can treat her melee attacks for one turn as incorporeal touch attacks. Using this ability discharges it.
Either you summon a creature to use in combat or you can get an effect as full-round + swift action for 1 min/level, or some combination there of.
Here's what I was thinking...
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Either you summon a creature to use in combat or you can get an effect as full-round + swift action for 1 min/level, or some combination there of.
Not so bad, but when I ran a shadowdancer monk, my shadow was a spy, and spent combats in the open flying away from fights, or stashed in a wall where possible. Although an incorporeal flyer with 1d6 Strength damage was occasionally nice in low risk fights, it was altogether too risky for most fights to me to let him romp around as a combatant, especially since there is no way to heal him outside of cause wounds.
We need to be able to acknowledge that as it stands, the shadow's max HD of 6 and fairly low charisma for an undead means that it will never be useful as anything but a highly circumstantial combatant. Spooky should be able to act as a spy, and I think minutes per level is too low to be useful.
I like my idea merged with yours, so:
At 3rd level, a shadowdancer can summon a shadow, an undead shade. Unlike a normal shadow, this shadow’s alignment matches that of the shadowdancer, and the creature cannot create spawn. The summoned shadow cannot be turned, rebuked, or commanded by any third party. This shadow serves as a companion to the shadowdancer and can communicate intelligibly with the shadowdancer. Once per day as full-round action she can summon her shadow companion from the shadow plane when she within 10 ft of a shadowed location; it may be dismissed to the plane of shadow any time as an immediate action. Every third level gained by the shadowdancer adds +2 HD (and the requisite base attack and base save bonus increases) to her shadow companion, and it can be summoned an additional time per day. If a shadow companion is destroyed it cannot be replaced for 30 days, and forces a fortitude save at DC 15. Failure does 1d4 con damage.
A shadowdancer can choose to dismiss her shadow companion as a swift action and gains one use of one of the following abilities:
Fading (Su): after making an single attack the shadowdancer can immediately use Stealth to hide, with -10 check penalty.
Shadow Skin (Su): a shadowdancer suffers no penalty for moving at normal speed while using stealth, and can run or charge with a -10 to the check.
Shadow Strike (Su): the shadowdancer can treat her melee attacks for one turn as incorporeal touch attacks.
Reasons:
The shadow is a useful spy, if the shadowdancer directs Spooky to not get into anything over Spooky's head. Losing Spooky should hurt, although Spooky has always had the ability to get out of trouble. 1d4 Con damage is dangerous, but recoverable in a few days. Dismissing Spooky should also have a consistent action cost. Making it free to do it one way, and swift action another, is a problem mechanically.
Edit for ninja: Nice Ruemere. That actually might provide a better way to advance Spooky, if he/she/it can pick up ghost abilities. The base minimum is to give Spooky some way to use Manifestation, but more specifically the ability to de-Manifest. Rejuvenation would be nice, but possibly overpowered. How does it work out for your group?
That's good, the DC 15 or take 1d4 con damage. A good compromise between negative level and nothing.
I should take a pause in thinking of new ideas and look at how the Pathfinder class interact with this PrC (6th level entry), especially the Rogue...
If its taken by a Rogue it doesn't need a faster stealth, as Fast Stealth talent taken earlier covers that. (good excuse for Shadow Talents?)
Darkness (the spell) now makes actual darkness, not 3.5s shadowy illumination so it is no aid to the Shadow Dancer. Its actually a hinderance because full darkness elements shadows. If there is no light there are no shadows.
Darkvision, spell or racial ability bypasses Darkness so no alterations needed I guess.
... It think there is disagreement on the utility of Summon Shadow.
A slight thematic change to the Shadow, can we find some way of working it into being the Characters shadow? Size wouldn't be an issue as natural shadows have tendency to stretch or shrink, having it default to Medium is explainable. Mainly I think it would be funny if a Dancer's own shadow was killed leaving her without one for 30 days.
Escaping sprung trap, evading a hurled fireball, or escaping a bullrush seem like the kind of things a shadow-dancer should be capable of doing with their "poofing" powers. Though for balance sake it needs to be limited times per day.
How about letting them use it as a free action whenever they succeed at a Reflex save? That'd be the same thing, but you'd not need to limit it per times per day.
Peace,
tfad
Escaping sprung trap, evading a hurled fireball, or escaping a bullrush seem like the kind of things a shadow-dancer should be capable of doing with their "poofing" powers. Though for balance sake it needs to be limited times per day.How about letting them use it as a free action whenever they succeed at a Reflex save? That'd be the same thing, but you'd not need to limit it per times per day.
Peace,
tfad
I'd prefer immediate action on successful Reflex save to a free action. That way, a shadowdancer has to balance those swift actions between defense and offense. Otherwise, I like it.
I would like to propose playtested solution to Shadow Companion Shadowdancer class feature. The solution has been used for several years now and seems to be good enough to survive various sticky situations.Please keep in mind that the solution does not address other problems with this class, chiefly, decreased combat ability (as compared to Rogue or Fighter) and somewhat ineffective other class features.
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Very strong. This makes Spooky a force to be reckoned with, different from an animal companion, but capable of providing a solid force on the battlefield.
Without any spellcasting advancement to back it up, we don't have to worry about the levels of cheese that can cascade off of the animal companion. Best case scenario is Bard 6/Shadowdancer 9, from a buffing standpoint, and that doesn't build off of too many Bard strengths.
That's good, the DC 15 or take 1d4 con damage. A good compromise between negative level and nothing.
I should take a pause in thinking of new ideas and look at how the Pathfinder class interact with this PrC (6th level entry), especially the Rogue...
If its taken by a Rogue it doesn't need a faster stealth, as Fast Stealth talent taken earlier covers that. (good excuse for Shadow Talents?)
I'm not sold on 1d4 Con, yet. Allowing the shadowdancer to eliminate the negative level after a week without the shadow, when she replaces it, might be a better choice. Hard to say, really.
I think Bard is a stronger entry point, since Perform(dance) actually helps the bard, but definately agree that Fast Stealth should fit within the advancement. If the shadowdancer already has Fast Stealth, then they can select another Talent which they qualify for. Maybe allow Rogue Talents oriented towards stealth at 5th and 10th levels, or instead at 4th and 8th. With a change to Shadow Step to be used as a move action, it might overload 4th level.
Agreed with regard to darkness, but I find it odd that the shadowdancer cannot create something like it. Handwave it into shadow illusion, I guess.
... It think there is disagreement on the utility of Summon Shadow.
A slight thematic change to the Shadow, can we find some way of working it into being the Characters shadow? Size wouldn't be an issue as natural shadows have tendency to stretch or shrink, having it default to Medium is explainable. Mainly I think it would be funny if a Dancer's own shadow was killed leaving her without one for 30 days.
I like the fluff, but definately agree that there is disagreement on what the purpose of the shadow is. An incorporeal attacker is quite nice, 1d6 Str damage as a touch attack is nice, but as written, the shadowdancer will be putting levels on the line to try to access those in any kind of CR even to CR +4 combat. I don't generally think that is good, since the usefulness of the shadow is circumstantial. The shadow can either be redefined, as Ruemere has done, to be a combat force, or, it can be left as circumstantial, usable mostly for out of combat utility, and able to get out of the way in actual combat. One of these options is the simpler one and eats less page space, and personally what I am in favor of.
I'm not so sure about the conditional Reflex save trigger for the immediate action. That's going to harder to adjudicate.
Bringing Shadow Jump more in line with Dimension Hop.
Shadow Jump (Su): At 4th level, a shadowdancer gains the ability to travel between shadows as if by means of a dimension door spell as a move action, once per turn. The limitation is that the magical transport must begin and end in an area with at least some shadow. A shadowdancer can jump up to a total of 100 feet each day in this way; this may be a single jump of 100 feet or two jumps of 50 feet each. Every two levels higher than 4th, the distance a shadowdancer can jump each day increases by 20 feet (120 feet at 6th, 140 feet at 8th, and 180 feet at 10th). This amount can be split among many jumps, but each one, no matter how small, counts as a 10-foot increment. A shadowdancer can bring other willing creatures with her, but she must expend an equal amount of distance for each creature brought with her. At 8th level, a shadowdancer can use shadow jump as swift action.....
At 10th level, she can use shadow jump as an immediate action if she successfully passes a reflex save triggered by a trap or spell.
or
At 10th level, she can use shadow jump as an immediate action once per day.
I'm still more inclined to go with a per day use of the immediate jump. Even once per day it could get the Shadow Dancer (and a friend or two) out of the away of a single very nasty attack/trap/spell/environment-effect as long as she hasn't already jumped (move or swift) that turn.
Shadow Talents would best start at 3rd level and every odd level there after. They could include:
Shadow Dancer Level 3+
Fast Stealth
Shadow Illusion, Minor(3/day, pick one of a small selection of 1st level spells)
Shadow Dancer Level 5+
Shadow Dash (bonus to speed while in shadows, run while hidden at -10)
Shadow Illusion, Major(3/day, pick one of a small selection of 2nd level spells)
Defensive Roll
Slippery Mind
Improved Evasion
Shadow Dancer Level 7+
Shadow Strike (attacks for one round count as touch attacks, 1/day?)
Shadow Stealth (stealth as swift action after single attack, 1/day?)
Shadow Talents would best start at 3rd level and every odd level there after. They could include:
Shadow Dancer Level 3+
Fast Stealth
Shadow Illusion, Minor(3/day, pick one of a small selection of 1st level spells)Shadow Dancer Level 5+
Shadow Dash (bonus to speed while in shadows, run while hidden at -10)
Shadow Illusion, Major(3/day, pick one of a small selection of 2nd level spells)
Defensive Roll
Slippery Mind
Improved EvasionShadow Dancer Level 7+
Shadow Strike (attacks for one round count as touch attacks, 1/day?)
Shadow Stealth (stealth as swift action after single attack, 1/day?)
Interesting set of tradeoffs here, but splitting these out like this increases the word count of the shadowdancer's class entry, a lot. Not that I speak for anyone at Paizo, but I know when I worked for a publishing company, word and page count costs money. Adding the limited spell list alone will be a problem.
I highly dislike putting Improved Evasion in here, since Evasion(ex) and Improved Evasion(ex) are standalone class features in any other class which has them. Plus, there is a fairly odd mix of (su), (sp), and (ex) abilities in here. I would assume Shadow Stealth is (ex), Shadow Strike is (su), Shadow Dash might be either (ex) or (su), and I know shadow illusion, minor & major are (sp). While all of these are things I think most can agree would be nice options (wraithstrike, fast stealth, swift action stealth after an attack), figuring out the cleanest way to fit these in is somewhat necessary.
People, allow me to copy and paste this thing I posted on the other topic. I forgot to mention there, but I'll mention here: I'm dming an ongoing campaign that changed to accomodate PF beta and the playtest, and I have this player that is now playing a SD for seven months now. We had many discussions about the powers and our opinions, and she made me swear that when the prestige classes discussion was hot on the forums I would post our opinions. In the end this is asking to give more power to the abilities (the idea is cool already), and giving the SD a slow-progression sneak attack.
Ctrl+v
"Alright, alright, one of my players has played Shadow Dancer for around seven months in my ongoing campaign.
First, she really wanted shadowdancer since the beggining, but could not afford the feats early, so she only got at level 9. Allow me to say what really works and what not. This is not a plain "I see this rule is strange", but this is the result of actual gameplay.
Requirements: Trash. Really. But then, they are some feats that may help. Oh, hell, they are requirements anyway. Dance BTW is the coolest.
HIPS: This is the great ability of the class and should stay at first level. It allows some sweet things that only the SD may do. This was the reason the player wanted it.
Evasion: I know that the SD is notonly for the rogue, but it's mainly for the rogue and the monk. And then, at the level he gains this, the two say "I already have this..."
Uncanny Dodge: Alright here. It makes your UD go up to IUD, so okay.
Shadow Illusion: My player is not a powergamer, nor she is an optimizer, and she does not really even care about power, but this ability made her sad. Now, a weak illusion, at level 10, only ONE TIME? When I asked on these boards for some love on the SD some people told me to put this ability at level 1 and give one more use at level 3, 5, 7 and 9. So far it worked really nice. It's a weak power at best...
Summon Shadow: A shadow is a powerfull creature. When you happen to undertand that the shadow shouldn't be used to fight every battle, it's still a powerfull monster. Let's think, at level 10, a creature that can only be hit by magical weapons is not that much. But then, there are not many monsters in the MM at this level that can hurt a shadow. I am not sure, but having the natural weapons count as magic weapons for the purpose of DR doesn't make them count as magic weapons for the purpose of incorporeal creatures. The shadow is meant to be used against certain oponnents, and the STR damage is sweet. It's good as it is.
Shadow Jump: I understand that it may be best used to escape cells, go to other side of doors and all this kind of great thing that may save the life of the character outside combat, but I think that it should have a longer range. You can shadowjump too little each day to be usefull...
Improved Uncanny Dodge: Like "I already have this"...
Sllipery Mind: I can understand why it's here... Opportunist is so much more the SD type of ability!
Improved evasion: Now, really, rogues and monks feel cheated with that. My player said that. Gaining it at level 17? Really, there are TONS of games that END at or before level 17... The capstone ability should be something great like unlimited shadow jump or something like that, that maybe made the SDs go to level 10...
The greatest con: Lack of SA. Really. It was my player's greatest sadness. It didn't need to be such a great SA as the assassin or the rogue, it could be 3 or 4 levels, but at least HAVE SA. My player asked, besides all the RP reasons she had to choose SD, what was the REAL profit to chose the RAW SD instead of assassin in terms of power, and I said "well...none".
Ideas of changes:
1 - Move shadow illusion down to the 1st level of th class and give more uses at level 3, 5, 7 and 9. Not powerfull, but tasty.
2 - Give shadowjump more love. Maybe +1/2 range or something.
3 - Sneak Attack. Every rogue gets HIPS for easy sneak attack. At level 2, 6 and 10, or 1, 4, 7 and 10.
4 - Some ability. ANY ability at level 10. Something like "halves penalties for hiding. -5 instead of -10 and -10 instead of -20". Anything.
Well. The player still loves SD and she's enduring it. But I had to make some changes to praise her for choosing a colorful class instead of a powerfull one. And IMHO, that what the SD needs: A little more power on the greatly coloful abilities."
That's it, so, how about sneak attack?