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So i have a question to the same sort of bonus to different things.
The prism, when set in a wayfinder, gives the holder a +2 insight bonus to CMB and CMD.
The personal trial of my enlightened paladin gives a +2 insight bonus to attack rolls and AC.
So i want to know if these two would stack in a grapple or not.
many thanks in advance.
They should, assuming that the Paladin bonus is untyped as suggested by your post.
Most things that boost attack/AC boost CMB/CMD respectively (except for armor/natural armor/shields/etc. for CMD).
They don't stack. But they don't have to. The bonuses are to different aspects of your character. It just so happens that two of those bonuses affect a certain thing your character does in a game. In this case it's your CMB roll, which is also indirectly affected by bonuses to attack rolls.
Just like an enhancement bonus to Strength and an enhancement bonus to dexterity both boost your CMD. Similar bonuses to different parts of your character working together. That is what this situation is.
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I was thinking about it that way too, but i think that black hands argument is sound. There are buffs to attack rolls, CMB and to the Grapple itself.
My guess is now that they would stack because they address different things.
Otherwise ability bonuses would be the only really useful kind.
Also, the attack bonus is a bonus to a dynamic number (the dice roll) while the CMB bonus is a Bonus to a static number.
But there is a compelling argument that your CMB is a separate and distinct thing from the attack roll. You add your CMB and then add other modifiers to the attack roll.
So when performing a combat manoeuver you add your CMB (with an insight bonus) and you then add other bonuses to your attack rolls due to weapons/feats/other effects (one of which is an insight bonus).
It's (arguably) the same as an enhancement bonus to strength and an enhancement bonus to your weapon, both modifying your attack roll.
But there is a compelling argument that your CMB is a separate and distinct thing from the attack roll. You add your CMB and then add other modifiers to the attack roll.
So when performing a combat manoeuver you add your CMB (with an insight bonus) and you then add other bonuses to your attack rolls due to weapons/feats/other effects (one of which is an insight bonus).
It's (arguably) the same as an enhancement bonus to strength and an enhancement bonus to your weapon, both modifying your attack roll.
I don't think so.
When you attempt to perform a combat maneuver, make an attack roll and add your CMB in place of your normal attack bonus. Add any bonuses you currently have on attack rolls due to spells, feats, and other effects.
You have a +2 Insight Bonus to CMB and a +2 Insight Bonus to Attack Rolls.
The +2 Insight Bonus to Attack Rolls would automatically apply to your CMB. The +2 Insight Bonus to CMB would not stack with the +2 you already receive from Attack Rolls. Both are Insight Bonuses. Both have the same bonus amount. Only one applies.
That's it. Full Stop. They don't stack. Period. End of discussion.
...Huh. That's actually a really good question. Dotting.
CMB is a special attack roll, so while they both work on the roll, they overlap and you only get one of the bonuses.
I do say they stack. If a insight bonus to your Str stacks with a insight bonus to Attack bonus, I fail to see why they don't stack.
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So a strength bonus enchantment and a weapon enchantment wouldn't stack either ?
The strength bonus enhancement change the value of your strength characteristic and that generate a strength bonus to to hit and damage, a bonus that you can use in conjunction with a weapon and its enhancement bonus.
Your 2 insight bonus to to attack rolls and CMB instead directly affect the same thing when you are using a combat maneuver, your CMB, so they don't stack.
Same thing for your AC bonus and CMD bonus.
So a strength bonus enchantment and a weapon enchantment wouldn't stack either ?
An Enhancement Bonus to Strength increases your Strength Modifier. It's not counted as an Enhancement Bonus to Attack and Damage Rolls because it goes into the Strength Modifier, which then is applied to Attack and Damage Rolls.
Whereas in this example, an Insight Bonus to Attack Rolls is already applied to your CMB. You can't add-again the same benefit to your CMB, because an Insight Bonus to the Attack Roll is already present.
A +2 Insight Bonus to your CMB provides a +2 Bonus to the Attack Roll you make with a Combat Maneuver, and you add your CMB to it.
A +2 Insight Bonus to Attack Rolls also applies to your CMB. So now you have 2 instances of adding a +2 Insight Bonus to your CMB. The rules on stacking have this to say:
Stacking refers to the act of adding together bonuses or penalties that apply to one particular check or statistic. Generally speaking, most bonuses of the same type do not stack. Instead, only the highest bonus applies.
I seriously question how everyone is coming up with "They Stack." Care to provide evidence besides stating "They Stack"?
Darksol, no one has just stated "they stack because". It has been explained why that conclusion has been reached.
Your CMB is a separate and distinct thing that is calculated as an independent number that can be modified by itself, separately from your attack roll, and that number is then added to the attack roll in it's entirety as a unique whole.
Then you add other modifiers directly to your attack roll. That does not affect your CMB. Your CMB has already been accounted for.
It all comes down to whether you see CMB as it's own statistic. The rules certainly seem to see it that way.
It's at the very least arguable.
I don't think they would stack.
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Darksol, no one has just stated "they stack because". It has been explained why that conclusion has been reached.
Your CMB is a separate and distinct thing that is calculated as an independent number that can be modified by itself, separately from your attack roll, and that number is then added to the attack roll in it's entirety as a unique whole.
Then you add other modifiers directly to your attack roll. That does not affect your CMB. Your CMB has already been accounted for.
It all comes down to whether you see CMB as it's own statistic. The rules certainly seem to see it that way.
It's at the very least arguable.
The confusion stems from a confusion as to what CMB is. CMB isn't separate from the attack roll anymore than your to-hit bonus is separate from the attack roll.
CMB has two parts, the bonus and the actual die. The actual die is the same for CMB as it is weapon attacks, just a d20. The bonus is used instead of the normal weapon attack bonus, but it is an attack roll, so things that up your attack rolls up your CMB. CMB IS an attack roll, not something you add to an attack roll.Your attack bonus with a melee weapon is:
Base attack bonus + Strength modifier + size modifier
add your CMB in place of your normal attack bonus.
CMB = Base attack bonus + Strength modifier + special size modifier
Combat maneuvers are attack rolls
So I have am going to make a CMB which is an attack roll. So I add my CMB and +2 insight since it's a CMB and my +2 insight since it's an attack roll and I end up with CMB +2.
Darksol, no one has just stated "they stack because". It has been explained why that conclusion has been reached.
Your CMB is a separate and distinct thing that is calculated as an independent number that can be modified by itself, separately from your attack roll, and that number is then added to the attack roll in it's entirety as a unique whole.
Then you add other modifiers directly to your attack roll. That does not affect your CMB. Your CMB has already been accounted for.
It all comes down to whether you see CMB as it's own statistic. The rules certainly seem to see it that way.
It's at the very least arguable.
It doesn't matter if CMB is its own statistic or not. It's a strawman argument.
Bonuses to Attack Rolls apply to your CMB. You have a +2 Insight Bonus on Attack Rolls. That applies to your CMB. So now we've confirmed that you have an existing +2 Insight Bonus to your CMB, correct?
You then have a +2 Insight Bonus that should apply directly to your CMB from the Wayfinder. But it doesn't. Because it already has a +2 Insight Bonus from it being an Attack Roll. You don't add another +2 Insight Bonus, because that's the same Bonus Type as you've added before.
Insight Bonuses do not stack with themselves, period. End of discussion. Suggesting otherwise goes against the RAW and RAI of Stacking, which I've cited the book definition and precedent already: Most bonuses of the same type do not stack. Insight Bonuses aren't on the Green Card List. Suggesting that they are or that they can be an exception to the rule is ludicrous to say the least. Only Dodge Bonuses, Racial Bonuses, Untyped Bonuses, and certain Circumstance Bonuses stack with themselves, and only stack if they are from separate sources. You can't cast 2 instances of Haste and expect to get a +2 Bonus to Attack Rolls for it.
Bonuses to Attack Rolls apply to your CMB.
They don't.
Bonuses to Attack Rolls potentially apply to your CMB should you use a maneuver using a weapon (trip, disarm, sunder). Bonuses to attack rolls don't apply to other maneuver (grapple, reposition, dirty trick).
Additionally, CMB is used to calculate CMD. Attack bonuses have no effect on CMD.
Point is, they are calculated separately so insight bonus to CMB and Attack Rolls don't stack, but are relevant in different situations.
I would not let these bonuses stack at my table.
Darksol the Painbringer
dragonhunterq was under the assumption that CMB was added to attack rolls similar to BAB or STR being added to attack rolls. That CMB was type CMB bonus to attack rolls. Thus an insight boosting CMB would boost the CMB typed bonus you're getting to attack rolls and then you'd add the insight to attack rolls. As if it was an enhancement bonus to STR and then you add str to attack rolls and then adding an enhancement bonus to attack rolls.
So he wasn't saying that Insight bonuses to the same thing would stack. But he was misguided in thinking that CMB wasn't an attack roll.
Bonuses to Attack Rolls apply to your CMB.They don't.
Bonuses to Attack Rolls potentially apply to your CMB should you use a maneuver using a weapon (trip, disarm, sunder). Bonuses to attack rolls don't apply to other maneuver (grapple, reposition, dirty trick).
Additionally, CMB is used to calculate CMD. Attack bonuses have no effect on CMD.
Point is, they are calculated separately so insight bonus to CMB and Attack Rolls don't stack, but are relevant in different situations.
You are incorrect.
"When you attempt to perform a combat maneuver, make an attack roll and add your CMB in place of your normal attack bonus. Add any bonuses you currently have on attack rolls due to spells, feats, and other effects. These bonuses must be applicable to the weapon or attack used to perform the maneuver."If you have heroism that adds +2 morale bonus to ALL attack rolls so it works for ALL combat maneuvers since those are all attack rolls, this includes grapples, and dirty tricks.
Now things that only boost the attack roll of a weapon, like weapon focus "tripping stick" would only work for combat maneuvers with that weapon. So if you did a trip or sunder attempt with your "tripping stick" then both would be 1 higher than your grapple because of weapon focus and assuming nothing else modifying the maneuvers.
also CMB is not used to calculate CMD
"CMD = 10 + Base attack bonus + Strength modifier + Dexterity modifier + special size modifier + miscellaneous modifiers"
Now you may have thought so since base CMD = CMB + dex, but is in fact it's own and separate calculation.
Bonuses to Attack Rolls apply to your CMB.They don't.
Bonuses to Attack Rolls potentially apply to your CMB should you use a maneuver using a weapon (trip, disarm, sunder). Bonuses to attack rolls don't apply to other maneuver (grapple, reposition, dirty trick).
Additionally, CMB is used to calculate CMD. Attack bonuses have no effect on CMD.
Point is, they are calculated separately so insight bonus to CMB and Attack Rolls don't stack, but are relevant in different situations.
Apologies for the blanket statement. I was referring to general bonuses; Insight, Luck, Circumstance, etc. Enhancement Bonuses from your weapon wouldn't apply unless you're using said weapon to execute the maneuver. That is common knowledge; but then again, I'm giving too much credit in this instance...
CMB is certainly not involved in calculating CMD.
The formula for calculating CMD is:
10 + Base Attack Bonus + Strength + Dexterity + Size + Misc. (Luck, Insight, Deflection, and similar bonuses to AC also apply).
Do you see the term "CMB" anywhere in that formula? No? Then CMB is not involved in calculating your CMD.
Yes, you make a Check with your CMB against a foe's CMD, but that's as far as the association gets to before it breaks off.