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ok, so i was reading Magic Jar and i had a question that isn't answered in the spell description, are you considered the body's creature type, since your in that body, or your original type, since its your mind? Suppose a human used magic jar to possess i dunno... a psuedodragon, does the person use the Dragon type of the body, or the Humanoid (Human) type of the mind?
Depends on the effect, and specifically whether it's your body or your mind that is affected.
I'd be inclined to believe you'd be of the body's type, but don't quote me. Perhaps someone a bit more knowledgable can confirm what I've said.
I think you're the body's type for body effects (not sure what those would be), your mind/soul's type for mental effects (like Hold Person).
Occult Adventures has some rules on how/whether you target the possessing mind. Basically if you have a dragon possessed by a human, it's subject to Hold/Charm person only IF you know it's possessed so you can deliberately target the possessor. If you don't you can target the dragon's mind with Hold/Charm/Dominate Monster, but it wouldn't be effected until the possession effect ended.
You should also think about ditching/swapping Magic Jar for the Possession and Greater Possession spells as OA advises, they're easier to adjudicate.
Any specific situations you're trying to answer? I have strong opinions on trying to mix possession effects or mind swap to cheese your type so that you can Major Mind Swap permanently into a different type of body. (You can't.)
I think you're the body's type for body effects (not sure what those would be), your mind/soul's type for mental effects (like Hold Person).
Interesting interpretation
Occult Adventures has some rules on how/whether you target the possessing mind. Basically if you have a dragon possessed by a human, it's subject to Hold/Charm person only IF you know it's possessed so you can deliberately target the possessor. If you don't you can target the dragon's mind with Hold/Charm/Dominate Monster, but it wouldn't be effected until the possession effect ended.
i read through those at one point but the thing here is that the dragon's mind in the situation this is based on will be gone
You should also think about ditching/swapping Magic Jar for the Possession and Greater Possession spells as OA advises, they're easier to adjudicate.
id prefer not to in this specific case, since magic jar actually makes slightly more sense effect-wise, you aren't puppeting them but rather you are forcing them out of the body and taking as your own
Any specific situations you're trying to answer? I have strong opinions on trying to mix possession effects or mind swap to cheese your type so that you can Major Mind Swap permanently into a different type of body. (You can't.)
This is specifically about a Beast-Bonded Witch, which i have learned can actually pull a complete body-hop via their twin soul ability, if you want i can go into greater detail but my current idea is to fulfill one of my bucket-list items regarding RPGs by getting a true dragon familiar (even if it isn't COMPLETELY true dragon ^_^)
It gets even more complicated if you shadow project first to gain the undead type then contingency magic jar into a dragon.
Are you humanoid, undead or dragon? and what happens if your new body dies?
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Magic jar says you use the host body's stats except where noted otherwise. So, yes, you use the host body's creature type while possessing it.
Hazrond, there are many threads on magic jar type effects, and a decent number of threads on the beast-bonded archetype as well. I currently have such a character in PFS, and let me tell you, it's not easy to adjudicate these effects. There are actually quite a few situations where there is a complete lack of rules on how to handle a particular effect combination. If this is for a home game, it's going to ultimately depend on what your GM thinks, but for PFS expect to see a huge amount of table variation.
Home games are pretty much the norm for me, but i always like having a rules-supported explanation to fall back on if the GM is worried about something
Be particularly cautious of what you read online, as there are a lot of threads claiming you can do things which you actually can't. As a general rile, you should stick to the most conservative interpretation.
im not entirely sure what the most conservative interpretation IS in this case, since the effect is basically a save or die with the added bonus of my dead familiar getting a fancy new body (that appears permanent from what is written)
If you have a specific plan in mind, feel free to post it here or pm me, and I'd be happy to give you some insight based on my research and experience as to its viability and legality.
Beast-Bonded Witch has faerie dragon familiar via feat, reaches level 8, schemes with said familiar and proceeds to find dragon of appropriate age, familiar dies, with party help proceeds to debuff dragon's will save into the ground then use Twin Soul ability, dragon eventually fails save and their soul is forcefully ejected from their body which leads to instant death of said soul, former faerie dragon has fancy new dragon body, profit.
(For extra fun you can rinse and repeat only with the witch dying instead, for double dragons)
Magic jar says you use the host body's stats except where noted otherwise. So, yes, you use the host body's creature type while possessing it.
It actually lists particular attributes, notably the attributes you get from your type are ones you don't get access to and retain the use of yours (skills, BAB, saves).
I would have to say this points to you retaining your type. Does it lead to some odd things, sure does. But you are you, using the physical body of someone else. A better version of Polymorph for all intents and purposes. There are very few mechanics that change something as fundamental as your type. They spell it out for you when they do. This doesn't mention that, so why would you assume it would?
Magic jar says you use the host body's stats except where noted otherwise. So, yes, you use the host body's creature type while possessing it.
This is correct. Let's take a look at the relevant section of Magic Jar.
If you are successful, your life force occupies the host body, and the host's life force is imprisoned in the magic jar. You keep your Intelligence, Wisdom, Charisma, level, class, base attack bonus, base save bonuses, alignment, and mental abilities . The body retains its Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, hit points, natural abilities, and automatic abilities. A body with extra limbs does not allow you to make more attacks (or more advantageous two-weapon attacks) than normal. You can't choose to activate the body's extraordinary or supernatural abilities. The creature's spells and spell-like abilities do not stay with the body.
You get the possessed Body's creature type for two reasons:
1. The spell is specific about what you keep, namely your "Intelligence, Wisdom, Charisma, level, class, base attack bonus, base save bonuses, alignment, and mental abilities". Creature type is not one of those, so you don't keep it.
2. You gain the body's natural and automatic abilities. Creature type is "Each creature has one type, which broadly defines its abilities." Therefore, because creature type defines the bodies abilities you get it as well.
That's the RAW of it. That being said Magic Jar has a lot of interactions where the rules are genuinely unclear. This just isn't one of them.
Magic jar says you use the host body's stats except where noted otherwise. So, yes, you use the host body's creature type while possessing it.This is correct. Let's take a look at the relevant section of Magic Jar.
If you are successful, your life force occupies the host body, and the host's life force is imprisoned in the magic jar. You keep your Intelligence, Wisdom, Charisma, level, class, base attack bonus, base save bonuses, alignment, and mental abilities . The body retains its Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, hit points, natural abilities, and automatic abilities. A body with extra limbs does not allow you to make more attacks (or more advantageous two-weapon attacks) than normal. You can't choose to activate the body's extraordinary or supernatural abilities. The creature's spells and spell-like abilities do not stay with the body.You get the possessed Body's creature type for two reasons:
1. The spell is specific about what you keep, namely your "Intelligence, Wisdom, Charisma, level, class, base attack bonus, base save bonuses, alignment, and mental abilities". Creature type is not one of those, so you don't keep it.
2. You gain the body's natural and automatic abilities. Creature type is "Each creature has one type, which broadly defines its abilities." Therefore, because creature type defines the bodies abilities you get it as well.
That's the RAW of it. That being said Magic Jar has a lot of interactions where the rules are genuinely unclear. This just isn't one of them.
For that to be "the RAW of it" it would have to state you gained the type. As this is an exception based rule set, things don't happen without being told they do.
Gaining type means a great deal more than "stats" and physical properties. Gaining type is called out to happen in every situation I can find that does so. This doesn't state it to happen so, so how can you say "that is the RAW of it" with a straight face, knowing full well how the game is designed and functions?
Actually, there ARE rules, specifically, from the Magic Jar spell itselfIf you have a specific plan in mind, feel free to post it here or pm me, and I'd be happy to give you some insight based on my research and experience as to its viability and legality.Beast-Bonded Witch has faerie dragon familiar via feat, reaches level 8, schemes with said familiar and proceeds to find dragon of appropriate age, familiar dies, with party help proceeds to debuff dragon's will save into the ground then use Twin Soul ability, dragon eventually fails save and their soul is forcefully ejected from their body which leads to instant death of said soul, former faerie dragon has fancy new dragon body, profit.
(For extra fun you can rinse and repeat only with the witch dying instead, for double dragons)
While poorly worded, the Twin Soul ability should really function like other Magic Jar effects which lack a receptacle. While the following quote from Occult Adventures is discussing incorporeal creatures, it is reasonable to apply to this situation as well:
Such a creature merges with the host’s body and is unharmed when ejected.Further, from the new Possession spell itself:
If you are successful, your life force occupies the host body. The host’s soul is imprisoned with you...Now granted, the Twin Soul ability says it functions like "Magic Jar (with no receptacle)", but there are no rules for how to adjudicate a Magic Jar spell without a receptacle.
If you are successful, your life force occupies the host body, and the host's life force is imprisoned in the magic jar. You keep your Intelligence, Wisdom, Charisma, level, class, base attack bonus, base save bonuses, alignment, and mental abilities. The body retains its Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, hit points, natural abilities, and automatic abilities. A body with extra limbs does not allow you to make more attacks (or more advantageous two-weapon attacks) than normal. You can't choose to activate the body's extraordinary or supernatural abilities. The creature's spells and spell-like abilities do not stay with the body.
so it is imprisoned in the jar, but we dont have a jar, meaning that there is nowhere for the soul of the original to go, thus it defaults to this
As a standard action, you can shift freely from a host to the magic jar if within range, sending the trapped soul back to its body. The spell ends when you shift from the jar to your own body.
If the host body is slain, you return to the magic jar, if within range, and the life force of the host departs (it is dead). If the host body is slain beyond the range of the spell, both you and the host die. Any life force with nowhere to go is treated as slain.
Mark Seifter, a Designer, also agrees that using the Occult Adventures guidance is probably a good idea for the Twin Souls ability, although in an unofficial manner, of course.
A fair interpretation, but not one the GM has stated he is using, infact my GM has a odd hate for most of the changes that the Occult Adventures book brought about, so its not entirely unthinkable that he might be playing without that change
Now to the second problem with this scheme. The expiration of the Magic Jar effect. As your familiar is taking over a body as if using Magic Jar, you need to take note of the duration of this effect: 1hr/level (and I believe it uses CL 9, thus 9 hours).
This IS one thing that will be needed to speak with the GM about, since it is unclear if the body hopping is permanent or not (the fluff of the ability indicates as such, though its not RAW so i will ask)
If the spell ends while you are in a host, you return to your body (or die, if it is out of range of your current position)So the host is, at the very least, going to get periodic attempts to escape.
Under the interpretation of Possession, yes, but it is more likely that we will be working under Magic Jar, which means the host is dead, so i don't think he will be able to MAKE any saving throws ;)
Having your familiar permanently out-of-body also has the further consequence that if YOU happen to be near death, you may be in bad shape, as your soul has the option of transferring to your familiar's body... NOT your familiar's host's body.
This is debateable, since the host was killed and the body is now belonging to my familiar it IS my familiar's body, as far as i can see, though you bring up a valid point that others could see it in a different light
If you are successful, your life force occupies the host body, and the host's life force is imprisoned in the magic jar.Per Magic Jar, the host's life force is imprisoned in the magic jar. It flat out doesn't say what happens if no magic jar is used. I don't see where you're getting that the host will die. (and this would certainly make certain incorporeal undead far more deadly...)
You are directly ignoring the text i quoted from the spell description, specifically paragraph 7, sentence 3, as for whether it makes possessing undead more dangerous, yes, very, it apparently was something that went overlooked for a while, and it makes ghosts work a little less like sharing a body and a little more like the Warcraft 3's Banshee, which i am kind of OK with.
If being strict about it, the magic jar spell will simply fail to function as it doesn't work as written. (if you don't accept the advice to use the possession rules)
i fail to see why it would fail, it seems to function save for the fact that no receptacle exists, which means the victim dies as opposed to being held in a mental prison
Edit: I am getting that they are dead because there is no receptacle, which means they have nowhere to go, meaning they fall under the part i quoted and are slain