Which occult class / archetype is best suited to being used to build a dual-wielding gishy tengu with?
From 7th level, definitely a mindblade magus. It still works before then, just not quite as well.
An ectoplasmatist spiritualist gets extra reach, which is handy for TWF, wis-based casting and spell combat at 3rd level. From 3rd to 6th level it's probably better for you.
Right now I'm looking at either the Medium (assuming that he'd pretty much always go with the champion), a Mesmerist (can't decide if the Vexing Daredevil is better or worse for the idea than the base class), or a Battle Host using Tatami-Do armour as his bond.
The medium looks to be (by far) the strongest offensive character of the three, the mesmerist the best for enabling the sneak attackers in the party to shine, and the battle host the one that comes closest to an actual gish that can bring blasts and battlefield control as needed.
Occult archetypes of arcane classes aren't as interesting, because then he can't cast with his hands full, and I really want to take advantage of swordtrained to run around with a falcata and a sawtooth sabre most of the time.
edit: this is the art that inspired the idea of dual-wielding tengu.
An Elemental Annihilator kineticist can do it at lv6.
Mesmerist only gets Painful State 1/round, so doesn't fit well with TWF.
Medium channeling a champion spirit is solid, because those flat damage bonuses work great for TWF. Something like:
16/15/12/10/12/12
1: TWF
2:
3: Spirit Focus (champion)
4
5: Power Attack.
But really, you're better off going for natural attacks on this. All the benefits of TWF, but without the feat, without the -2 penalty, and with an extra attack.
I didn't know about Spirit Focus. That pushes the medium's combat capability even further.
Natural attack tengu seems like the obvious way to go, especially at low levels, but then he doesn't get to look like this psycho - or take advantage of swordtrained to have fun with all sorts of different swords. And he'll eventually get more attacks via the TWF chain than he would with just claws & beak.
Two Weapon Feint is awesome. Especially if you have the sword and shield weapon trick from weapon masters handbook.I wouldn't do a feint build if you want to be dual-wielding, personally.
I was looking at Two Weapon Feint / GTWFeint, but a strict reading of Consummate Liar means that a Mesmerist can't ignore the Combat Expertise & Int requirements of them because they don't have Improved or Greater Feint as prerequisites.
And I haven't seen the Weapon Master's Handbook yet. I didn't think it was even out yet actually.
Occultist is not good at TWF. You don't have the actions to use Legacy Weapon on both weapons to grant them Bane.
Two Weapon Feint is awesome. Especially if you have the sword and shield weapon trick from weapon masters handbook.I wouldn't do a feint build if you want to be dual-wielding, personally.
I was looking at Two Weapon Feint / GTWFeint, but a strict reading of Consummate Liar means that a Mesmerist can't ignore the Combat Expertise & Int requirements of them because they don't have Improved or Greater Feint as prerequisites.
And I haven't seen the Weapon Master's Handbook yet. I didn't think it was even out yet actually.
It comes out tomorrow
No, the mindblade magus is a psychic caster and can cast with his hands full. As can the ectoplasmatist spiritualist, obviously, though the latter can only use one whip (or the weapon held in that whip) when using spell combat.
I agree a medium can hit things hard, but using the champion spirit it doesn't have enough magic to be called a gish IMO.
A mesmerist using compel alacrity on himself does get a little free movement, which helps a TWF character, but kind of lacks attack/damage bonuses on its spell list and as noted above the in-class damage bonus isn't made for TWF.
Looking at the mindblade again. I believe I may have been thinking of the Spellblade earlier. How's the archetype look in play?
An Elemental Annihilator kineticist can do it at lv6.
They are the only ones that stick out as TWF users for me from the occult classes.
Mostly because they have FANTASTIC ability to switch styles on the fly. They can smoothly go between 2 handing, archery, TWF, and the one big blast, all depending on whether they need to use a full attack or a standard action, and whether they are near or far.
In terms of raw damage, they are amazing. Might suck if you want to stay pure TWF (particularly since their typical answer to DR would be 'just use the basic blast and throw enough dice so it doesn't matter')
The thing I hate about the elemental annihilator is the complete loss of utility talents. Yes they can make good dps but they give up so much to do that.
Sure.
Cool if you just want flying swords and daggers and stuff. Since aether is a valid choice and all.
But yes- the main mecahnics- the ability to grab the power of archery and TWF with the much more modest individual attacks that can't get substance infusioned up- should have been a feature of the main class. Perhaps as an upgrade to kinetic blade.
That would have given it enough of a niche, without worrying about all the feats and bonuses that replace utilities. Just giving my the option to have a million arrows floating in the air ready to turn enemies into a pin cushion, without the loss of abilities. Spending feats on archery or TWF the normal way seems like enough of a cost in and of itself.
Having the option for high DPS, as well as the varied utilities and infusions for blasts, would be great.
(particularly since their typical answer to DR would be 'just use the basic blast and throw enough dice so it doesn't matter')
But isn't that the best answer for most things? Throw more s~#! at it til it sticks.
Looking at the mindblade again. I believe I may have been thinking of the Spellblade earlier. How's the archetype look in play?
You know how a magus doesn't want to make concentration checks because of their so-so casting stat? Like that, only more so. Getting mirror image up early to soak the AoOs rather than cast defensively becomes even more important. TWF and rime spell + frostbite (+ spont. metafocus) is pretty impressive if feat-heavy (maybe too feat-heavy for a tengu rather than a human), and at 7th level you can throw down even more attacks with strangling hair or twilight knife.
(particularly since their typical answer to DR would be 'just use the basic blast and throw enough dice so it doesn't matter')But isn't that the best answer for most things? Throw more s&+@ at it til it sticks.
Yes, but I mean simple DR. Like silver/cold iron.
The physical blasts don't deal with that very well, except for metal (and that has a noticeable cost, so it is just a nova move really; also, that infusion doesn't work with the annihilator's special stuff). And none of them can deal with alignment really.
The only counter most kineticists have to DR is that they don't hit more than once, usually. And even annhilators have to give up all their special feats to just hang back and do regular blasts when there is DR.
But this wouldn't be anywhere as much of a problem for regular weapon users. They can grab special materials, or they can grab oils of bless weapon (I mean- if you know you are going into the lair of evil outsiders...).
Yea I get you. The kineticist answer to non damage type DR is to go big and punch through it.
Looking at the mindblade again. I believe I may have been thinking of the Spellblade earlier. How's the archetype look in play?You know how a magus doesn't want to make concentration checks because of their so-so casting stat? Like that, only more so. Getting mirror image up early to soak the AoOs rather than cast defensively becomes even more important. TWF and rime spell + frostbite (+ spont. metafocus) is pretty impressive if feat-heavy (maybe too feat-heavy for a tengu rather than a human), and at 7th level you can throw down even more attacks with strangling hair or twilight knife.
I'm expecting the mindblade to have to make extensive use of casting his touch spells while just out of reach and then taking his 5' step to get close enough to hit with them to hopefully avoid the issue entirely. The penalty's too big to overcome, so the only reasonable solution is to just never cast defensively in the first place.
I did look at adding spontaneous metafocus to a standard frostbite build, but as you said, it's too feat heavy. Especially when I want to spend two feats to get back heavy armour. Since there's no way to get dex-to-damage on his conjured weapons, having enough dex to qualify for the TWF chain is prohibitive. But by starting with Artful Dodge, that's no longer a problem. And since he's not going to have much Dex to speak of, getting heavier armour is both practical and suits the art.
Anyhow, here's what I've decided on:
Str 14, Dex 14, Con 13, Int 16, Wis 10, Cha 8
1 Artful Dodge
3 Medium Armor, Arcane Accuracy
5 Heavy Armor
6 Power Attack, Empowered Magic
7 TWF
9 ITWF, Ghost Blade
11 Dimensional Agility, Dimensional Assault
12 Devoted Blade or Maximized Magic
13 Dimensional Dervish
15 Dimensional Savant, Quickened Magic
17 Critical Focus, GTWF
18 Bane Blade
19 ??
He'll use a bastard sword as his default mindblade until the better crit of a falcata justifies switching, and either a sawtooth sabre or a wakizashi for his offhand, depending on how much he wants the extra 5% crit chance.