So is having a PC get Undead Traits broken? The list of immunities is pretty awesome:
Undead Traits (Ex)Undead are immune to death effects, disease, mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, morale effects, phantasms, and patterns), paralysis, poison, sleep, stun, and any effect that requires a Fortitude save (unless the effect also works on objects or is harmless). Undead are not subject to ability drain, energy drain, or nonlethal damage. Undead are immune to damage or penalties to their physical ability scores (Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution), as well as to fatigue and exhaustion effects. Undead are not at risk of death from massive damage.
Pretty cool, huh? The only drawbacks are death at zero hit points and the (slight) difficultly of healing. Of course there's the role play disadvantage.
[If this issue has been done to death or undeath, pardon me. Please link to appropriate thread. My searches haven't turned up anything much.]
Sure mechanically... But roleplaying wise? Paladins of the holy awesome and powerful gm god will look for every excuse to kill you.
You would have to play a creepy reclusive character rather than the rambunctious adventurer
Unless the campaign is based on it and/or the rest of the party is, you will find it unbalanced.
Most of the typical low level challenges will be a walk through for this type of character in most published adventures. The worst drawback is the dead at 0 HP, but that can be mitigated by semi intelligent tactics.
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I'm playing an undead myself (Character died and DM didn't want him to so early, so he made me into one). It does seem pretty darn strong. Not only do I have those immunities, but the thing I turned into has fast healing 5. So I'm fairly tough to kill. That said, my DM will either tend to focus more minions on me (which is fine since I'm supposed to be a front liner anyways) or he'll focus on the rest of the party, with the bad guys saying that I get to watch my allies die slow, and painful deaths.
The interesting part comes in the RP. My character doesn't want to be undead. As it stands, the way my DM has asked me to play it, he's in constant agony from the wounds that caused his death, he's in constant rage that he has to keep in check and he's decaying over time. Not to mention he has abilities that, if not kept in line or are not used intelligently will cause major problems. That all said, my character understands the power he has and how it can help save others, but in the same vein, he doesn't want to be that monster (not that type of monster, he has another one in mind). So it's a tough choice on whether he takes the cure (once one is available) or not.
But yes. The immunities and not breathing have been quite lovely. Arcanist shot my direction with a color spray. No worries. Poison miasma popping up out of the fallen enemies? Shrug, I don't breath and I'm immune to poisons. If my DM doesn't want to deal with it, he'll likely either destroy my character (which would be a bummer, I enjoy the RP of him) or give me a way out of it and offer something more vulnerable instead (even going as far as reviving me). Hoping for the whole, "something more vulnerable" out of those three options though.
It depends on what you are and what you turn into.
If your character becomes a skeletal champion or zombie lord, you're probably losing out.
If you become a vampire or lich you come out ahead.
If you *just* get undead traits, it's pretty much a wash.
Sure you're immune to mind affecting spells, but you're also immune to moral bonuses. Have fun if you're a bard or barbarian...
Sure you don't have to worry about Con! But you now are destroyed instantly when you hit 0HP...
It depends on what you are and what you turn into.
If your character becomes a skeletal champion or zombie lord, you're probably losing out.
If you become a vampire or lich you come out ahead.
If you *just* get undead traits, it's pretty much a wash.Sure you're immune to mind affecting spells, but you're also immune to moral bonuses. Have fun if you're a bard or barbarian...
Sure you don't have to worry about Con! But you now are destroyed instantly when you hit 0HP...
Honestly, I hear about moral bonuses all the time, but the number of times they have popped up in our games is basically never. And if they did, I was probably bringing them. So that doesn't make it a penalty. More like a possible drawback. Especially considering unchained barbarian doesn't use morale anymore.
Closest I've come to having an undead character in one of my games was a Dhampir. Healing was such a concern that I think I would feel like actual undead status was a mixed bag. I agree that it would be powerful, but "too powerful" is highly subjective. It's definitely not too powerful by my standards.
Although I houserule that intelligent undead lose the immunity to mind affecting.
Honestly, I hear about moral bonuses all the time, but the number of times they have popped up in our games is basically never. And if they did, I was probably bringing them. So that doesn't make it a penalty. More like a possible drawback. Especially considering unchained barbarian doesn't use morale anymore.It depends on what you are and what you turn into.
If your character becomes a skeletal champion or zombie lord, you're probably losing out.
If you become a vampire or lich you come out ahead.
If you *just* get undead traits, it's pretty much a wash.Sure you're immune to mind affecting spells, but you're also immune to moral bonuses. Have fun if you're a bard or barbarian...
Sure you don't have to worry about Con! But you now are destroyed instantly when you hit 0HP...
I've heard that Paladins are good for moral bonuses.
Honestly, I hear about moral bonuses all the time, but the number of times they have popped up in our games is basically never. And if they did, I was probably bringing them. So that doesn't make it a penalty.
Heroism. 10min/level. Easily extendable with a cheap lesser Extend Rod. One of the best Buffs ingame. On the level of Haste, sometimes better, sometimes worse. But you can have both!
If you have an arcane caster who isnt all about nuking and "Being a God -Bask in my Glory, you Peasants!", but rather (also) about cooperation and buffing, you can have it up in practically al difficult encounters that arent surprises in save territory.
Honestly, I hear about moral bonuses all the time, but the number of times they have popped up in our games is basically never. And if they did, I was probably bringing them. So that doesn't make it a penalty.Heroism. 10min/level. Easily extendable with a cheap lesser Extend Rod. One of the best Buffs ingame. On the level of Haste, sometimes better, sometimes worse. But you can have both!
If you have an arcane caster who isnt all about nuking and "Being a God -Bask in my Glory, you Peasants!", but rather (also) about cooperation and buffing, you can have it up in practically al difficult encounters that arent surprises in save territory.
I know what gives them, the point was they aren't a given in the game. It's a great bonus, but whether or not it is available... Whole story all together and not worth considering in the grand scheme of "this isn't over powered because you can't get a bonus from this one spell".
I revived one of my players' characters as a mummified creature. Didn't unbalance the game.
The real issue is whether or not your player can be trusted to not maximize every potential little bonus, or whether they can be trusted to do exactly that. GM accordingly.
Remember that undead get CHA bonus added to HP, so an undead wizard is interesting, but an undead sorcerer is interesting AND has a ton of additional HP.
So, the answer to the OP's question at least partially depends on your class. If you're playing a character who is built with a high CHA and a low CON, you get a giant benefit there. If you're playing a character with a high CON and a CHA dump stat, you will suffer a HUGE penalty.
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An undead bloodrager or anti-paladin is one of the most terrifying martials you can face.
An undead monk with feral combat training for flurry of level draining (or STR draining for shadows) is also incredibly painful.
The lack of easy healing and death at 0 HP is not that much of a downside when compared to that.
An undead's base type abilities are pretty strong but mostly defensive and they set it off with some risks / vulnerabilities.
He can be turned / commanded
can not be healed in conventional ways
does not gain morale bonuses
extra vulnerable to many things (prepared foes will be a pain)
immune to some beneficial effects (enlarge person, heroism)
It really depends a lot on the specific encounter or campaign, you typically will do great in fights against team evil, team good has tools to rip you apart fast.
Gives the DM multiple choices to screw with him.
Paladins wanting to kill him.
then fighting Living Necromancers it will suck to be targeted by control Undead. a 2nd level spell can totally turn him against his team. Where typically a DM/player needs to wait for Dominate Person.
Control Undead is a 7th level spell. Control Undead is VASTLY more powerful than Dominate Person because the former absolutely can be used to turn you against your party but the later pretty much can never do it due to the limitations built into the spell itself - If you're commanded to do something that's "obviously self-destructive" (like being forced to attack your long-time friend and ally who is currently trying to free you from the wizard who has dominated you), you don't follow them. If it's something that's "against its nature" (like being forced to attack your long-time friend and ally who is currently trying to free you from the wizard who has dominated you), you get a new save at a +2.
The real kicker is the Command Undead feat which allows you to use a channel energy to basically cast Control Undead. That is the one that is going to get you.
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I've had an undead cleric in my current campaign since level 5 (homebrew template, mostly undead traits and a few little things like spider climb). He's resistant to some stuff, but somehow no one seems to mind that the party healer isn't likely to be taken out of combat by a single failed save. It's also not like I can't threaten him - he came pretty close to being completely shredded by some advanced ghouls in the last session.
I do expect it would be more disruptive with a character that was really built to take advantage of undeath. The first few levels might also see a bigger effect
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Sure you're immune to mind affecting spells, but you're also immune to moral bonuses. Have fun if you're a bard or barbarian...
Barbarian - yes.
As a bard you can't personally take advantage of Heroism or Good Hope, but Inspire Courage itself is a competence bonus. And nothing keeps you from using Heroism on everyone else.
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Gives the DM multiple choices to screw with him.
Paladins wanting to kill him.
then fighting Living Necromancers it will suck to be targeted by control Undead. a 2nd level spell can totally turn him against his team. Where typically a DM/player needs to wait for Dominate Person.
Control Undead is a 7th level spell. Control Undead is VASTLY more powerful than Dominate Person because the former absolutely can be used to turn you against your party but the later pretty much can never do it due to the limitations built into the spell itself - If you're commanded to do something that's "obviously self-destructive" (like being forced to attack your long-time friend and ally who is currently trying to free you from the wizard who has dominated you), you don't follow them. If it's something that's "against its nature" (like being forced to attack your long-time friend and ally who is currently trying to free you from the wizard who has dominated you), you get a new save at a +2.
The real kicker is the Command Undead feat which allows you to use a channel energy to basically cast Control Undead. That is the one that is going to get you.
I meant COmmand Undead and the Feat as well. Both very low level options for screwing with them.
If you're commanded to do something that's "obviously self-destructive" (like being forced to attack your long-time friend and ally who is currently trying to free you from the wizard who has dominated you), you don't follow them. If it's something that's "against its nature" (like being forced to attack your long-time friend and ally who is currently trying to free you from the wizard who has dominated you), you get a new save at a +2.
When it comes to the Command the line says:
"This spell allows you a degree of control over an undead creature. If the subject is intelligent, it perceives your words and actions favorably (treat its attitude as friendly). It will not attack you while the spell lasts. You can give the subject orders, but you must win an opposed Charisma check to convince it to do anything it wouldn't ordinarily do. Retries are not allowed. An intelligent commanded undead never obeys suicidal or obviously harmful orders, but it might be convinced that something very dangerous is worth doing."
If the PC is Chaotic or Neutral evil it is kind of a DM judgement if attacking a group you have been in a few weeks is something you ordinarily wouldn't do or be against his selfish nature. And if that PC has at anytime secretly done something negative in the group it leaves a nice window to exploit. But if the Undead PC's Charisma is just plain crap then that opposed check will not be too hard to pass. It would not be a suicidal action or harmful to Himself.
So a few factors will be weighted like:
Length of Party friendship, Depth of Friendships, and PC ethics/code/additudes.
However there is no +2 to the save in the spell description.
sorry tho about the confusion of Command undead verse Control undead. Both beginning with C and ending with Undead and a mixture of me being in a rush did cause a bit of confusion.
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For race, I would do this:
Start with Human for a base. Remove +2 Bonus to any stat. Change type to Undead.
That's it.
That's all they get.
Getting that at character creation would probably still be too strong - especially with a point-buy.
After all - they have 1 fewer stat which they need to spend points on. Not to mention Wisdom being less important since they're immune to most things which you need a good Will save for. (figments are the only big category I can think of)
For race, I would do this:
Start with Human for a base. Remove +2 Bonus to any stat. Change type to Undead.
That's it.
That's all they get.
Getting that at character creation would probably still be too strong - especially with a point-buy.
After all - they have 1 fewer stat which they need to spend points on. Not to mention Wisdom being less important since they're immune to most things which you need a good Will save for. (figments are the only big category I can think of)
For point buy I'd probably scratch off the amount that they would have reasonable spent on Con if they weren't undead. From there you are pretty much the same as anyone else as though Wisdom got a lot less important, Charisma (most classes dump stat) just became much higher priority. You are just rearranging dump stats. Oracle and Sorcerer just got a lot happier though.
I've had an undead cleric in my current campaign since level 5 (homebrew template, mostly undead traits and a few little things like spider climb). He's resistant to some stuff, but somehow no one seems to mind that the party healer isn't likely to be taken out of combat by a single failed save. It's also not like I can't threaten him - he came pretty close to being completely shredded by some advanced ghouls in the last session.
I do expect it would be more disruptive with a character that was really built to take advantage of undeath. The first few levels might also see a bigger effect
No one minds as it is in the party's interest that they don't go down ;)
If you had 2 front line combatants, one undead the other "normal" there would be a huge difference of what each can deal with. Half the typical low level dangers would get ignored by the one and the other would get dropped by them.
Not saying not isn't possible to run the character. Just saying it is in no way balanced to the base assumptions of the game in comparison to the rest of the typical options.
Anything can work if the GM wants to put the time and effort into it. But those games aren't usually worried about "balanced" mechanics.
When someone comes in and asks about if something is balanced, you should give them a legitimate answer to that effect. 'It is balanced' is completely different from 'You can make it work' especially if they are referring to the race creation system, which we ALL know is broken in the vacuum they are usually considered in, like the magical item creation rules.
Thanks for the many thoughtful responses. I'd figured that an Undead PC would be too powerful, but you all have given scenarios where that won't necessarily be the case.
Plus I was unaware of the morale bonus issue.
something like this maybe:
Forsaken
+2 Strength, -2 Dexterity
- base land speed is 30 feet.
- Darkvision
- Undead: undead rather than humanoids.
- Zombie shuffle: When a forsaken has equal or less hit points than her character level remaining she can only take a standard action per round.
- Unlike other undead, a forsaken is not destroyed when reduced to 0 hit points or less. Instead, at 0 hit points a Forsaken is staggered, but does not risk further damage from strenuous activity. Between –1 and –(charisma score) hit points she is unconscious and cannot act, but she does not risk further damage (unless her enemies attack her or some other unfortunate event befalls her). At –(charisma score) hit points, the Forsaken is destroyed.
- Not affected by raise dead and reincarnate spells or abilities. Resurrection and true resurrection can affect Forsaken. These spells return a destroyed Forsaken to her undead life; the Scourge’s curse makes it virtually impossible to bring a Forsaken back to life as the creature she was before she died. Only wish or miracle can accomplish that.
- Forsaken only have 5 ability scores, they get 5 points less in pointbuy than other characters at character creation.
Automatic Language: Common
* I'd consider interweaving some mandatory racial levels that increase her undeadly nature and delay class features somewhat, similar to 3.5 paragon levels.
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No one minds as it is in the party's interest that they don't go down ;)
If you had 2 front line combatants, one undead the other "normal" there would be a huge difference of what each can deal with. Half the typical low level dangers would get ignored by the one and the other would get dropped by them.
Not saying not isn't possible to run the character. Just saying it is in no way balanced to the base assumptions of the game in comparison to the rest of the typical options.
Anything can work if the GM wants to put the time and effort into it. But those games aren't usually worried about "balanced" mechanics.
When someone comes in and asks about if something is balanced, you should give them a legitimate answer to that effect. 'It is balanced' is completely different from 'You can make it work' especially if they are referring to the race creation system, which we ALL know is broken in the vacuum they are usually considered in, like the magical item creation rules.
I thought I did give an answer to that effect, in that I indicated I had no problems with it for a particular PC, but that I could foresee problems with other characters.
Undead traits are certainly not balanced, in the sense that they are notably more powerful than what most other races get. However, whether they are actually "too powerful" depends heavily on the particular game. This is true for many rule elements. A paladin may be "too powerful" if you mostly fight fiends - I'm pretty sure a group in Wrath of the Righteous would see a bigger difference between a paladin and a non-paladin frontliner than the difference between a humanoid fighter and one with undead traits.
I should note I didn't go to any particular effort to "make it work" for our undead character - no adjusting encounter design, for example. I just looked at the concept, noted that it wasn't charisma-based and wasn't going to overshadow any similar PCs, and approved it.
Hmm. Maybe just let everyone use Stat Arrays, but give the Undead PC a lower Stat Array.
I think ARG actually says your supposed to do this.
This is why I keep constitution for undead and constructs. It's just called 'construction' if they're not alive. It does pretty much the same thing, but refers to the strength of the materials used. If a PC becomes undead, their constitution just becomes construction. It does have the bonus that things that damage or penalise constitution do not affect construction, but there are a few extra things that do (typically stuff that would reduce object hardness also gets the ability to penalise or damage construction).
Undeath is worth a feat and 50 gp.
It's a pretty good form of undeath, too. Except for the part about earning the eternal enmity of your GM.
And no choice of race or God to worship, then no choice of alignment, many things which are probably not enforced by most tables due to them being considered unnecessary or extremely limiting and no enforced restrictions. But there to limit the "power" of the ability in attempt to balance it.
Like being LG for a paladin.
Undeath is worth a feat and 50 gp.
It's a pretty good form of undeath, too. Except for the part about earning the eternal enmity of your GM.
And no choice of race or God to worship, then no choice of alignment, many things which are probably not enforced by most tables due to them being considered unnecessary or extremely limiting and no enforced restrictions. But there to limit the "power" of the ability in attempt to balance it.
Like being LG for a paladin.
LG paladins are the worst paladins.
And the best, but nobody cares about that. Alignment should be restricted by roleplaying skill, not by game designers. Sure, it makes some sense that you would get incredible powers for being incredibly devout, but a LN or NG paladin would also make for an interesting play experience. If you can come up with a convincing reason why your paladin isn't a paragon of morality and purity or your antipaladin isn't a corrupt monster, then by all means, play that character.
Now if you're just playing it only because it has the best DPR when smiting, ok, go play a LG one.
It is still a game with rules, and despite people not liking them, they are there to provide a cost/benefit and help to provide guidelines for character roles.
You don't have to like it, but the game was designed with certain assumptions and that is one of many.
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Like being LG for a paladin.
It's ridiculous to suggest that the alignment restriction for paladins is for balance reasons, since a) paladins aren't that powerful and b) alignment restriction has no impact on power what so ever.
Like being LG for a paladin.It's ridiculous to suggest that the alignment restriction for paladins is for balance reasons, since a) paladins aren't that powerful and b) alignment restriction has no impact on power what so ever.
Just because they aren't that powerful doesn't mean some abilities they have access to aren't "good" or better than others.
It isn't just balance, it is flavor and role as well, as I said before. It provides something unique and "special" while providing a direction for the class with those abilities.
You don't have to like it, but it is a part of the game.
Paladins are powerful compared to, say, Fighters.
Pointless comparison. Paladins are the weakest of the tier 3's. They aren't powerful, they are average.
Alignment restriction prevents certain multiclasses. Like Monk/Barbarian or Paladin/Assassin. So not exactly no impact on power, but just very little, because nobody in the right mind is going to play a Paladin/Assassin because the class feature synergy is trash and being a Paladin/Assassin effectively means you need to be a Paladin/Rogue/Assassin, which isn't all that good because Rogue.
It's not hard for a paladin to get rage or bardic powers, also if you want assassin abilities just multiclass slayer. So again, no change in power.
It is Just for the flavour.
To me I would rather play a plant to gain a good bit of trait advantages and not worry about the Paladins hunting me down.
Plant Traits: A plant creature possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature's entry).
Low-light vision.
Immunity to all mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, morale effects, patterns, and phantasms).
Immunity to paralysis, poison, polymorph, sleep effects, and stunning.
Proficient with its natural weapons only.
Not proficient with armor.
Plants breathe and eat, but do not sleep.