How are weapons actually classed ?
Meaning, what's the difference between say a club, a tree branch, table leg etc...could you use ablitiys that give you a bonus to clubs, can you cast shillali on a table leg and so on.
Or is everything just RAW ? Or is there some thought behind classing a weapon ?
Hope that made sense :)
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A Club, as meaning the one on the weapons table, is a manufactured weapon.
A table leg, is an improvised weapon.
So, any weapon, manufactured to be a weapon, is a weapon, and any that are not, are improvised weapons.
Well, this excludes unarmed strikes and natural weapons, as they have their own rules, but you get the point.
To be fair, clubs are free. In many respects they are little more than an appropriately sized tree branch, and a table leg could be classified as a club.
I'd probably look to someone having time to work on the branch/leg, such as narrowing down the hand grip or strapping it with a leather grip, before removing the improvised weapon penalties, but there is room for a lenient GM to decide otherwise.
Thanks all, this is vary helpful. I've have a table where we customize a lot of the rules but we all do our best to be balanced. Our next game I'm playing a totem/wardrummer skald and wanted to make some kind of non magical flame forge fist with out the flame. I guess what bugs me is why can't gauntlets count as clubs ? He'll why can't most blugiting weapons count as clubs....sorry last sentence was a rant :)
I'm not a weapon user like some here, but even I can tell that a gauntlet is going to be wielded very differently from a club. The extra leverage from the length of it for a start.
presumably you can take a tree branch and fashion it into a club with a Craft check and 0 time (since it costs nothing to craft, it takes no time to craft).
One of my favorite ways of pointing out the crazy not-thought-out unplayable brokenness that is the Craft skill is that, by a strict reading of RAW, any character who can take 10 the Craft check can touch a tree and instantly turn it into a pile of clubs. :)
More on topic, there are lots of examples in the APs of giants using things like logs as clubs and not taking improvised penalties.
With the 0 cost, I would say that any reasonably stout piece of wood could function as a club without being improvised.
Is it a good weapon? Martial
Is it an okay weapon? Simple
Is it a crap weapon? Exotic
My *general* rule for improvised...
Did someone at some time use a craft skill to make it a weapon?
Yes -- not improvised
No -- Improvised
Unarmed strike slides sideways but it was always a bit different anyways.
Your table leg for example: If you just grab it and swing, improvised.
If you take some time and make a craft check (with success) congratulations it's not a club... Don't use it to hold up a table, it won't work so well at that now.
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Is it a good weapon? Martial
Is it an okay weapon? Simple
Is it a crap weapon? Exotic
But I love the Ecstoc.
To be fair, clubs are free. In many respects they are little more than an appropriately sized tree branch, and a table leg could be classified as a club.
I'd probably look to someone having time to work on the branch/leg, such as narrowing down the hand grip or strapping it with a leather grip, before removing the improvised weapon penalties, but there is room for a lenient GM to decide otherwise.
That is what I generally imagine happens with a 0 gp item- it just takes an hour or two of simple work with the craft skill in order to get it finished.
I have handled various pieces of wood used in construction- while some nice be thin enough to fit in the hand, the corners and such make for a poor grip when trying to smach things. So just shaving some of that off for a smooth grip would be the first step in the process.
meh I'll give the battle poi as an example of a really nifty exotic weapon.
You spend a feat and can use it like a normal weapon but it deals fire damage and you get a virtual feat in exchange as you can use two like you are two weapon fighting... and it's light so you might actually want to do it.
It's a nice choice for medium bab classes that might want to two weapon fight and want an exotic weapon, but don't want to invest too much in two weapon fighting.
meh I'll give the battle poi as an example of a really nifty exotic weapon.
You spend a feat and can use it like a normal weapon but it deals fire damage and you get a virtual feat in exchange as you can use two like you are two weapon fighting... and it's light so you might actually want to do it.
It's a nice choice for medium bab classes that might want to two weapon fight and want an exotic weapon, but don't want to invest too much in two weapon fighting.
From what I understand it, most exotic weapons are crap because they don't play the system well.
From what I've heard, it is a weird point system where each type has a certain number of points (1- simple, 2- martial, 3- exotic) to spend on abilities or improved stats.
The problem with exotic weapons is that...well... the abilities are usually marginal benefits at best for certain builds (monk, trip, disarm, etc.), which means nothing if you don't have those builds (and even then...it is debatable if it is ever worth it). And if you put two abilities on the same weapon... no one will want it, since you are doing the extra cost, but getting one part wasted on something you won't use (since few people grab mutliple maneuvers).
So there are only so many ways to improve a weapon in ways actually care about- better damage dice, increased threat range, and increased critical modifier. That is why falcata are considered 'pretty good' and kama are '...just use a sickle'.
So exotic weapon proficiency is a feat meant to give you access to weapon that use more 'points'...but those weapons spend the points in ways you rarely care about.
So mechanically I could just use a quarter staff and call it dual iron fists? Because I really don't see how a the ends of a staff are not clubs.
That is not how it works. A quarterstaff is more than 2 clubs stuck together. The entire way they are used is completely different, they are different weapons. In the same way that a double bladed sword is not simply 2 longswords stuck together.
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So mechanically I could just use a quarter staff and call it dual iron fists? Because I really don't see how a the ends of a staff are not clubs.
Well, going your way, Nunchaka are just Clubs tied together. A Tonfa is just a Club with a funny handle.
You seem to just want, well, just about everything count as a Club.
Is that the end goal?
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So mechanically I could just use a quarter staff and call it dual iron fists? Because I really don't see how a the ends of a staff are not clubs.Well, going your way, Nunchaka are just Clubs tied together. A Tonfa is just a Club with a funny handle.
You seem to just want, well, just about everything count as a Club.
Is that the end goal?
A greatsword is a large metal club that has been flattened and given an edge
A bow shoots small, thin clubs tipped in iron.
Wizards use tiny clubs in their blood, called midichlorians, to manipulates the force magic.
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Are we looking to have everything be classified as "Club" and "Not Club"?
Isn't everything already classified as "club" or "not club"? Tree branch: club. Rapier: not club. Table leg: club. Gauntlet: not club. Gauntlet tied to a stick: club. Dragon: not club. Dragon tied to a stick: extremely difficult to wield club.
Ahem...
I mean... What BBT said.
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Are we looking to have everything be classified as "Club" and "Not Club"?
I actually had one character concept where a Kellid with a great club started worshipping Sarenrae, and wanted to fight in the style favored by her warriors... but didn't want to give up the great club.
So they'd take Weapon Focus, Weapon Versatility (allows you to deal Bludgeoning, Slashing or Piercing damage), and merciful blade trait so they could deal nonlethal slashing damage... with a great club.
Only other way I know weapons are grouped is by handiness and by the fighter weapon groups: Updated fighter weapon groups here
But can I use it to prevent my horse from being stolen?
I can sort'a see the 'take some time' argument on making sure your 0gp club is a club and not just some crappy piece of wood that'll probably do 1d2 piercing to your hand when it shatters into splinters on its first use. And similar for the 0gp quarterstaff.
Out of the exotics, the only ones that look good? Not counting the monk weapons which are there because monk ...
Aklys, wakizashi, falcata, katan, urumi, rhoka sword, whip, gnome hooked hammer (unique!), mancatcher, orc double axe, two-bladed sword, net. Honourable mention to the tetsubo.
The rest? As mentioned earlier, way too niche. Or just crap compared to other options.
But can I use it to prevent my horse from being stolen?
I can sort'a see the 'take some time' argument on making sure your 0gp club is a club and not just some crappy piece of wood that'll probably do 1d2 piercing to your hand when it shatters into splinters on its first use. And similar for the 0gp quarterstaff.
Out of the exotics, the only ones that look good? Not counting the monk weapons which are there because monk ...
Aklys, wakizashi, falcata, katan, urumi, rhoka sword, whip, gnome hooked hammer (unique!), mancatcher, orc double axe, two-bladed sword, net. Honourable mention to the tetsubo.
The rest? As mentioned earlier, way too niche. Or just crap compared to other options.
What is wrong with the estoc? It is a supped up version of the rapier. I suppose that it is a niche weapon, but it is a pretty big niche.
Are we looking to have everything be classified as "Club" and "Not Club"?I actually had one character concept where a Kellid with a great club started worshipping Sarenrae, and wanted to fight in the style favored by her warriors... but didn't want to give up the great club.
So they'd take Weapon Focus, Weapon Versatility (allows you to deal Bludgeoning, Slashing or Piercing damage), and merciful blade trait so they could deal nonlethal slashing damage... with a great club.
Eh. Makes about as much sense as a learning the art of nonlethally slashing with a chainsaw.
And heck, looking at some Maori clubs, some of them are basically designed like wooden axes. I think they are called Tewhatewha.
Are we looking to have everything be classified as "Club" and "Not Club"?
At least count as a club for the feats and abilities.
The closest thing I was able to find to reskin is most likely a mere club, because it falls under hammers and close weapon categories.
Also thanks to everyone for the help. I like to find the reason behind RAW. "Because it says so" is rarely a valid argument.
So they'd take Weapon Focus, Weapon Versatility (allows you to deal Bludgeoning, Slashing or Piercing damage), and merciful blade trait so they could deal nonlethal slashing damage... with a great club.
I think you mean the Blade of Mercy trait from Pathfinder Companion: Legacy of Fire Player’s Guide, correct ?
Not everyone believes that works. The argument goes like this.
Weapon Versatility allows you to deal a different sort of damage with your weapon that you have weapon focus in. It does NOT change the identity or classification of the weapon. Blade of Mercy does not specify "when doing slashing damage", it specifies "with any slashing weapon". Your weapon (a great club) is still a bludgeoning weapon, you just happen to be able to do slashing damage with it. It cannot be made keen and does not qualify for Blade of Mercy.
Be prepared for some DMs to disallow this.
I've been wondering the same thing, but for Club vs. Light Mace.
They do the same damage, have the same crit, the club is one pound lighter, yet the light mace is considered light while the club is considered one-handed.
Is it because a club can have shillelagh cast on it? Or is it because a light mace costs money?
I've been wondering the same thing, but for Club vs. Light Mace.
They do the same damage, have the same crit, the club is one pound lighter, yet the light mace is considered light while the club is considered one-handed.
Is it because a club can have shillelagh cast on it? Or is it because a light mace costs money?
Because of the points. (most) Simple weapons get 1 point to improve its stats or abilities.
Club spends it on the throwing ability, it seems, while light mace spends it on improved damage dice.
At least, that is how I understand it.
I've been wondering the same thing, but for Club vs. Light Mace.
They do the same damage, have the same crit, the club is one pound lighter, yet the light mace is considered light while the club is considered one-handed.
Is it because a club can have shillelagh cast on it? Or is it because a light mace costs money?
Because of the points. (most) Simple weapons get 1 point to improve its stats or abilities.
Club spends it on the throwing ability, it seems, while light mace spends it on improved damage dice.
At least, that is how I understand it.
I'm not sure I follow. They deal the same damage.
Mace, light 5 gp 1d4 1d6 ×2 — 4 lbs. B —
Club — 1d4 1d6 ×2 10 ft. 3 lbs. B —
Is it the throwing that makes it one-handed instead of light? That seems...odd.
I'm not sure I follow. They deal the same damage.I've been wondering the same thing, but for Club vs. Light Mace.
They do the same damage, have the same crit, the club is one pound lighter, yet the light mace is considered light while the club is considered one-handed.
Is it because a club can have shillelagh cast on it? Or is it because a light mace costs money?
Because of the points. (most) Simple weapons get 1 point to improve its stats or abilities.
Club spends it on the throwing ability, it seems, while light mace spends it on improved damage dice.
At least, that is how I understand it.
I am not an expert in the system used to design weapons. I am just using a half remembered dev comment ( I think) that I read.
Simple weapons get 1 point, martial weapons get 2, exotic get 3.
The point can improve stats, or give special properties.
Base weapon stats appear to be something like this:
light- 1d4, 20/x2
one handed- 1d6, 20/x2
two handed- 1d8, 20/x2
The mace improves its damage dice by a step with its point. Club gives itself the throwing property.
The end result doesn't determine what handedness it has- only where it starts.
I'm not sure I follow. They deal the same damage.I've been wondering the same thing, but for Club vs. Light Mace.
They do the same damage, have the same crit, the club is one pound lighter, yet the light mace is considered light while the club is considered one-handed.
Is it because a club can have shillelagh cast on it? Or is it because a light mace costs money?
Because of the points. (most) Simple weapons get 1 point to improve its stats or abilities.
Club spends it on the throwing ability, it seems, while light mace spends it on improved damage dice.
At least, that is how I understand it.
I am not an expert in the system used to design weapons. I am just using a half remembered dev comment ( I think) that I read.
Simple weapons get 1 point, martial weapons get 2, exotic get 3.
The point can improve stats, or give special properties.
Base weapon stats appear to be something like this:
light- 1d4, 20/x2
one handed- 1d6, 20/x2
two handed- 1d8, 20/x2The mace improves its damage dice by a step with its point. Club gives itself the throwing property.
The end result doesn't determine what handedness it has- only where it starts.
Oh, I see. Light mace spent the point on increased damage and that's it, so it was able to remain light. Club spent it on being a thrown weapon, so in order to increase the damage as well it hand to change to one handed.
So the fact that it can be thrown is the reason why it's a one-handed instead of light weapon.
Thanks!